economy of dnd

[Dandu]

I am going to roll up a senior cook for @Dandu 's Peasants and Plagues campaign.

I hope you're prepared to *work* for your precious literacy and roleplay it out properly. I want to know how you plan on finding a teacher and what your learning schedule is so that you are able to master the demanding task of writing and keep up cooking at the same time - and you better not throw any of that multiclassing nonsense at me, you hear?

A lot of people are down on Wiccans... until their sheep get eaten by a dragon.

Then, all of a sudden, it's all "Where's the Wiccan? How come you can't find one when you need one?"

I personally find .50 caliber rifles to be more pleasant company, and of greater overall utility.

 

[Jimlock]

And the part about magic, considering how many Wiccans there seem to be.

Or at least, people who claim to be Wiccans.

lol... don't get me started on "real-life magic"...

There will be nothing but red in this thread... if I... "elaborate" on that...

 

[S'mon]

Modern Wiccism dates from the mid-20th century, Druidism from the 19th. The Romans wiped out Druidism in Roman Britain in the late 1st century AD, and there's no evidence for any organised paganism long postdating the pre-Saxon conversion to Christianity in Britain & Ireland (the Irish conversion being roughly coterminous with the Saxon invasion of Britain). Of course the pagan Saxons were then converted too. Individual non-Christian folk beliefs & practices survived, of course, such as Easter eggs and Maypole dances. The Witchcraft hysterias seem to have mostly post-medieval (and post-Reformation), and there's no evidence there were any real witches with a non-Christian belief system, though there were certainly folk practices that met with Church disapproval and eventually persecution.

In terms of what era D&D most resembles, I'd say pre-4e D&D most resembles the first half of the 16th century, ca 1530 AD - which is technically Renaissance, but still looks a lot like what people think of when they think 'medieval' (hence Ren Faires?). The society depicted in Machiavelli's The Prince, or even that recent Henry VIII tv show The Tudors. 4th edition's Points of Light paradigm feels more Dark Ages, technically with Plate armour, but given that the 'plate' there is barely better than scalemail it has no impact on the setting. It could just as well be a bronze breastplate or even cuirboulli, like ancient Greek hoplite armour.

 

[Jimlock]

...and because I consider it rude to answer to posts with a one liner, permit me to address your points one by one.

As Eldritch Lord noted, I'm not arguing that medieval Europe is simplistic. I'm arguing that it isn't D&D.

No one said it is. I address this in my previous post where I mention your name.

You have knights, but they don't act as a vassal to a king in any of the standard settings.

Not always but there are cases they do. Take a look at the Purple Dragon "Knights" who serve under Azoun in Cormyr.

Whether they literary serve a king or not does not make them less medieval-ish.

What about the Knights of Solamnia in Dragonlance? Are they less medieval-ish?

They act as vassals of "the Oath and the Measure"

Even the real knights of medieval Europe were "supposed" to serve goodness and high ideals... their king was "supposed" to uphold those ideals.

They don't have a fief and they don't lord over serfs. Yes, that's not all there was to the dark ages or the later medieval era, but it's not in the basic settings in any real way.

Not in the basic settings and not in any campaign I've ever played in!

I suggest you read the 3.x Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, from page 80 to 83...because thats EXACTLY how things work in the Realms. Feudalism... the high clergy has political power... 90% are peasants/farmers striving to survive while working the lands belonging to the nobility, just read it.

The same thing holds true in DragonLance, and I know that for I have DMed 2nd edition DragonLance for a few years... Can't give you the references for I only have the books in hard copy and not with me. Still I can tell you for a fact that there were statuses included for every PC/NPC... from slaves and commoners (farmers) to noblemen and royal rulers... land ownership playing the exact same role.
Also, Dragonlance includes another Medieval-ish cliche, for the main campaign based on the starting trilogy begins with no deities, for the Gods have turned their back to the world... The people have sinned, they ask for forgiveness... chaos everywhere blah blah blah...
That's what happened in real life as well, for when Europe was closing to the year 1000, people were preparing for the end of the world, (Millennium was NOTHING compared to the superstitions of the time). They thought they had failed their god... chaos and violence was rampant...

Having played in Greyhawk campaigns, both 2nd and 3rd edition, I don't remember it being any different...

Greyhawk City is flat-out Renaissance

I don't know what City of GreyHawk you've played in. The one I 've played in was a rich and flavorful Medieval-ish Capital, with all the guilds and merchants, the nobles and the craftsmen... everything one could find in an actual Middle Ages Capital. Don't get this wrong again... It WAS NOT a Medieval Capital, because of magic wizards, clerics etc... still it WAS BASED on a medieval Capital more than any other Capital from a different historical period.

 

[Jimlock]

In terms of what era D&D most resembles, I'd say pre-4e D&D most resembles the first half of the 16th century, ca 1530 AD

I love your accuracy


Technologically, the world of the Forgotten Realms is not nearly as advanced as that of Earth; in this respect, it resembles the pre-industrial Earth of the 13th or 14th century. However, the presence of magic provides an additional element of power to the societies

 

[S'mon]

I love your accuracy


Technologically, the world of the Forgotten Realms is not nearly as advanced as that of Earth; in this respect, it resembles the pre-industrial Earth of the 13th or 14th century. However, the presence of magic provides an additional element of power to the societies

Are you saying I'm wrong because a wikipedia article wrongly claims that Forgotten Realms tech resembles Earth tech in the 1200s & 1300s (pre plate mail, pre much of the typical D&D equipment list)?

 

[Jimlock]

Are you saying I'm wrong because a wikipedia article wrongly claims that Forgotten Realms tech resembles Earth tech in the 1200s & 1300s

It so happens that I agree with that article and I posted it so as to say that I'm far from being the only one who believes that D&D, historically, is based in the Middle Ages and not the Renaissance. Is that so bad?

(pre plate mail, pre much of the typical D&D equipment list)?

As for that, I believe I've covered it all in my previous posts...

 

[S'mon]

It so happens that I agree with that article and I posted it so as to say that I'm far from being the only one who believes that D&D, historically, is based in the Middle Ages and not the Renaissance. Is that so bad?

Well you could have written that Wikipedia article section yourself. Anyone could have. I don't see how it has any evidentiary value.

My suspicion is that when you think 'medieval' you (and the wikipedia entrist) are thinking D&D-medieval, not actual historical pre-Black Death high feudal medieval. And D&D-medieval is actually more like the early 16th, arguably late 15th century. This period is normally called "Renaissance" - because of what happened culturally in northern Italy after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. *But* at least in backward parts of Europe such as England, it didn't actually feel much different from the bastard-medieval or pseudo-medieval period that followed the Black Death. England in 1485 AD still very much 'felt medieval' - more medieval than D&D.

 

[Dandu]

Well you could have written that Wikipedia article section yourself. Anyone could have. I don't see how it has any evidentiary value.

Next you'll be telling me that the population of elephants has not tripled in the last month.

 

[kitcik]

Are you saying that just because someone posted a feat on Wikipedia, this does not make it official, balanced material?