D&D 5E Ed Greenwood's 'Death Masks' and Greyhawk

[MonsterEnvy]

I would say one of the biggest differences between Greyhawk and FR is that Evil is much stronger in Greyhawk.

In FR the forces of evil tend to just come out of nowhere as a threat, before getting defeated. And they are mostly limited to the wilderness of the world, when they rise up. The forces of good and neutrality are the primary rulers of the world and hold the most power.

In Greyhawk the forces of evil control half the map.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Greyhawk could be awesome if done -correctly-. To differentiate itself from the Realms, it needs to get downright Sword and Sorcery and pulpy. A lot more shades of gray in morality, a lot more adventures based on glory and profit instead of good vs. evil, and a lot more hot shirtless barbarians with broadswords cleaving the skulls of eldritch warlocks.

If, however, they treat it more like 3es treatment of Greyhawk then I've got no buy in at all.

Man oh man I would LOVE a Greyhawk city based module.

What this guy said!!!! A GH more grounded in F&GM and Conan type adventure rather than epic heroes saving all of creation. A neutral orientated AP or something. Though I wonder if that would sell as well as epic heroes of good. Probably not.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As long as they center on what makes Greyhawk unique and special, I'm in. They haven't done that much with FR, thanks to it pulling the burden of also being the launch setting, but that means that they CAN go that route with GH.

Seeing Mordenkainen pop up here in addition to Curse of Strahd, it's gotta be some inevitability that they're planning on something bigger from him.

 

[Caliburn101]

I dont know, is Greyhawk Underdark more evil then FR Underdark? Were the cataclysms that destroyed GH more dark then the ones the destroyed FR? Is Vecna more evil then Szass Tam?



You can not just blatantly steal from Tolkien and then complain that someone else stole from you.

Well I guess you can but FR did exist before GH and Gary and Ed were probably reading much the same novels as well.

To answer your issues in turn;

1. Greyhawk Underdark - read Against the Giants and then into the Vault of the Drow etc. and that question answers itself, unless you think Lolth (a Greyhawk invention...) conquering and enslaving a vast web of different worlds is somehow smaller in scope than the FR pastiche.

2. Twin cataclysms not brought on not by accident and high magic - but deliberate mutual mass genocide of entire races and civilisations. It's obvious which is the most evil - read your Greyhawk history.

2. Szass Tam is a bad kitten compared to Vecna. I don't need to exaggerate one iota to make that claim. He tried to annihilate ALL the worlds and ALL the planes of existence simultaneously and remake the entirety of the multiverse (not merely one paltry world) in his dark image. How many intimately corrupting and vile evil artefacts has Szass Tam ever engendered? How many permanent entries in the Book of Vile Darkness did Szass Tam make in official lore? None on both counts - he's a zero on the evil scale compared to Vecna!

You may like FR better - but I think from your answers that you are not nearly aware of Greyhawk enough to make a valid comparison.

 

[Shasarak]

To answer your issues in turn;

1. Greyhawk Underdark - read Against the Giants and then into the Vault of the Drow etc. and that question answers itself, unless you think Lolth (a Greyhawk invention...) conquering and enslaving a vast web of different worlds is somehow smaller in scope than the FR pastiche.

2. Twin cataclysms not brought on not by accident and high magic - but deliberate mutual mass genocide of entire races and civilisations. It's obvious which is the most evil - read your Greyhawk history.

2. Szass Tam is a bad kitten compared to Vecna. I don't need to exaggerate one iota to make that claim. He tried to annihilate ALL the worlds and ALL the planes of existence simultaneously and remake the entirety of the multiverse (not merely one paltry world) in his dark image. How many intimately corrupting and vile evil artefacts has Szass Tam ever engendered? How many permanent entries in the Book of Vile Darkness did Szass Tam make in official lore? None on both counts - he's a zero on the evil scale compared to Vecna!

You may like FR better - but I think from your answers that you are not nearly aware of Greyhawk enough to make a valid comparison.

I think that is a valid point as most of my Greyhawk knowledge comes from the ADnD Dugeon Masters Guide, Gord the Rogue and Mika the Wolf Nomad so obviously grain of salt and all of that.

So I dont know how legitimate it is to talk about Greyhawk underdark and then immediately start talking about Lloth and her Abyssal plane because yeah, of course the Abyss is going to be more evil then Forgotten Realms by definition but how does that compare Greyhawk Underdark with Forgotten Realms exactly?

And I dont know if a mass murder suicide catacylsm is really that evil considering that it happened years ago in the backstory and most likely consisted of probably two people firing Greyhawk Nukes at each other. I mean a cataclysm is a cataclysm whether it is caused by an arrogant High Priest or two warring countries or killing the Goddess of Magic. Even Earth has the Atlantians causing the great flood.

And I do not know how many points you get as a multiverse shaping Lich if the only things left behind are your Eye, Hand and Head. I mean full credit for the awesome backstory and killing an entire world has got to be great XP but really now you are competing with the Monkey Paw to be the most awesome body part artifact?

Again I am certainly no Greyhawk scholar and on the other hand even I can see the inconsistancies in the narrative.

 

[Prism]

I'm wondering if the effective removal of raise dead in the book is related to a future storyline. It seems an odd side plot if not

 

[Irennan]

I'm wondering if the effective removal of raise dead in the book is related to a future storyline. It seems an odd side plot if not

In that book there are a lot of side plots that lays the basis for future things to happen. Resurrection wasn't effectively removed tho, it's now only granted if the deity says so.

 

[Azzy]

Many parts of FR are very dark, but yes other parts that are much more hopeful.

I wouldn't say plagerized, that's not fair, but I will say FR tends to well eat other settings. Kara Tur, Al Qadim, Abeir, Mazitica, Moonshaes, the Cold Lands, elements from various settings as well, Eberron Shifters, Nentir Vale Tieflings, Incarnated Devas, Primordials, Thrikreen from Athas, ect...

Just a nit pick, but thri-kreen predate Dark Sun.

 

[Caliburn101]

I think that is a valid point as most of my Greyhawk knowledge comes from the ADnD Dugeon Masters Guide, Gord the Rogue and Mika the Wolf Nomad so obviously grain of salt and all of that.

So I dont know how legitimate it is to talk about Greyhawk underdark and then immediately start talking about Lloth and her Abyssal plane because yeah, of course the Abyss is going to be more evil then Forgotten Realms by definition but how does that compare Greyhawk Underdark with Forgotten Realms exactly?

And I dont know if a mass murder suicide catacylsm is really that evil considering that it happened years ago in the backstory and most likely consisted of probably two people firing Greyhawk Nukes at each other. I mean a cataclysm is a cataclysm whether it is caused by an arrogant High Priest or two warring countries or killing the Goddess of Magic. Even Earth has the Atlantians causing the great flood.

And I do not know how many points you get as a multiverse shaping Lich if the only things left behind are your Eye, Hand and Head. I mean full credit for the awesome backstory and killing an entire world has got to be great XP but really now you are competing with the Monkey Paw to be the most awesome body part artifact?

Again I am certainly no Greyhawk scholar and on the other hand even I can see the inconsistancies in the narrative.

The question was about evil though wasn't it...

Being prone to hubris and using powerful magic which causes a catastrophic accident (such as that which caused the Anauroch) isn't evil, it's egotistical to a megalomaniac level, but he intended to become a God, not kill everyone and destroy everything.

The Invoked Devastation and subsequent Rain of Colourless Fire in Greyhawk were deliberate annihilations of entire peoples and everything they had ever built. The first done to end a war based on the urges of Nazi-style racial supremacy, the second as an act of revenge carried out by Clerics whose God refused them deific vengeance, but which they undertook anyway.

The Underdark was a Greyhawk invention, so it makes no sense to compare them as it was plagiarised by FR. However, the Lloth in Greyhawk had far grander evil plans than the one represented in FR, and so I would argue she's a more cruel and megalomaniac version of the one represented in the FR Underdark.

I don't actually understand your point on Vecna... he became a demigod after losing his eye and hand to Kas... he then tried not to destroy a world, but the entire universe (see the Die Vecna, Die adventure module) with the purpose of remaking it from the darkness the way he wanted it with him as the only ultra-god. Annihiliiating everything that ever existed to remake the universe as entirely evil beats anyone's evil (except Tharizdun - another Greyhawk entity...).

I raised the issue of evil artefacts because of their original provenance - check your DMG.

Sword of Kas - Greyhawk
Eye and Hand of Vecna - Greyhawk
Book of Vile Darkness - Greyhawk
Wand of Orcus - Greyhawk

Not to mention that the Demonomicon of Iggwilv (quoted in the Demons section of the MM) was written by Iggwilv (originally Tasha of the 'Tasha's Hideous Laughter' spell fame...). She is a Greyhawk character.

FR stole huge amounts of Greyhawk-defined evil;

Tiamat, Orcus (and nearly all the Demon Lords), Asmodeus (and nearly all the Arch Devils) to name but a few.

Greyhawk introduced the first soul-devouring weapon (Blackrazor) AND villain (Acererak), and has the most deadly dungeons in the game - even to this day. Tomb of Horrors anyone?

Even Acererak (once Vecnas apprentice) eclipses any scheme ever cooked up by Szass Tam in terms of pure evil - check out his ultimate aim in Return to the Tomb of Horrors to discover what that was.

Ultimately however, it is Wizards of the Coast who defined how much darker Greyhawk is than FR.

They classified FR as 'High Fantasy' and Greyhawk as 'Swords & Sorcery'. Their definitions of these being in the DMG.

S&S is darker and less heroic by definition than High Fantasy. Compare Lord of the Rings to Conan if you need a shorthand reference for that.

The foremost wizard who spends his time saving the world from itself and other threats is a concept also copied from Greyhawk. The difference is, Mordenkainen is much more morally ambigious than Elminster, and sometimes fights FOR evil, not against it.

In any case - I am now labouring a point that doesn't require any more illustration.

Greyhawk is simply a darker and more evil campaign world than Forgotten Realms.

 

[Parmandur]

Seems to me the difference has to do with era, more than anything; Greyhawk feels more early middle ages, Forgotten Realms has a more Renaissance vibe.