"Elements of Magic" and other systems

[RangerWickett]

I bought EoM one week after its release. It isn't surprising that I was interested enough to comment the whole file because I wrote CZ already for the original EoM several very long emails which has been already credited in the erratas (I really didn't expect that great honor ). So if you want me to comment the whole revision before its release - I would do it .

EoM revised seems to be the near perfect implementation of a flexible, yet balanced magic system - you and CZ managed to create a self-contained system which allows every theoritical spell with everytime the same effect (prismatic spells need wild magic, like I told CZ, but that's why Wild Spellcraft is in Lyceian Arcana ). That's all because you separated two extra elements and the parameters like range and duration from the spell lists, you consolidated the spell lists and rearranged the effects - EoM revised is clearly superior to the original EoM and I would recycle my printed exemplar if it wouldn't contain the one chapter which isn't included anymore. Could you please release a separate PDF-file with that chapter, at least to the old customers? So I can print on copy without looking like being separated.

Thank you for the compliments, certainly. We're still working on polishing up the final bits (and the Transform list is giving us fits; too flexible), but could you send me an email so I can reply with the current text? You've been a great help, and it's been great to hear that people are responding well to the revisions.

 

[RangerWickett]

Some new questions:

-Will be a list of converted core spells published?
No, not in the book. CZ kept a file of some comparisons, but it got really cumbersome, and after looking at the system for a while, you should figure out how to handle most spells from standard D&D.

-In your sampler you wrote in the Summary of Changes, that "a 1 MP Evoke spell will never deal more than 3d6 points of damage". I thought that 1 MP would bring only 1d6 points of damage.
You'll see. I don't want to post the whole spell list.

-Is Cursecraft now a use of Transform Spells?
It depends on what you want to do. Most curses would be reversed infuse spells (to lower abilities), Evoke Death (to cause blindness, etc.), or Compel spells (to restrict actions).

-How is the spell list progression? Do casters get normally 2 spell lists per level but at first (or fourth) level 3 and then every four levels after the first (or fourth) again 3?
6 at first level, 3 more at 2nd, 2 per level thereafter.

-Do you already know a spell which violates Rule 1?
I'm not as much of a powergamer as I ought to be, but I have been a little worried that all high-level Mages will start off every day with Infuse Fire to give themselves a +16 Charisma for higher spell DCs. We'll have to see how that pans out.

-What happened to Disjunction?
If you want to permanently de-magic an item, you need feat Craft Wondrous Item, and you have to apply a permanent dispel magic effect, which costs XP.

-Is there a possibility to create no save-spells?
No. I hate spells like that.


Some unrelated questions:

-Is FTCF modern already updated to 3.5? Especially the Damage Reduction power is out-of-date. Has now every ability a boost power?
It's updated, but not yet fully laid-out or released. DR has been updated, and the ability score boosters were clarified.

-How about a book which covers a point-buy system as a replacement for classes? I know of one which uses point-buy with classes but I like to have a system with no classes.
I've done enough writing on point-buy systems, no offense. I need a break to something less number-crunch-oriented.

 

[RangerWickett]

I tried to implement the core spell Animal Messenger with a spell level of 2, which gives 3 MPs for distribution. First a look at its stats:

-Range: Close
-Target: One tiny animal
-Duration: One day/level
-Effect: Allows to use a tiny animal as carrier for a tiny scroll or similar. Directions must be simple or destination must be well-known to the caster. Subject waits until spell expires. Rest falls under minor enhancements.

Implementation: Compel Animal 1???/ Gen 5 (1 MP for close range, 4 MPs for duration one day)

This spell uses the double amount as the core spell and has only a duration of one day at max. This raises the questions: Is the core spell in reality overpowered? Or is in EoM a mitigating factor for MP costs missing? Can spells prolonged, even the caster isn't in range of the original casting (or even on another plane)?

Well, the option you use is one that is available, but probably unnecessary. It'd be Compel Animal 3/Gen 4 (we'll say that you should have the animal at hand for the spell to work), which would let you telepathically force an animal to obey your command: in this case, to deliver a message.

The easier option would be to use Compel Animal 3/Gen 0 to allow yourself to telepathically communicate with the animal for a minute, long enough for you to make a Diplomacy check and give it directions. If you roll at least fairly well for your Diplomacy check, the creature will obey without having to actually be compelled. The Compel list also covers non-linguistic communication, such as when you're talking to a non-sentient animal.

 

[RangerWickett]

I have an interesting question for Illusion spells. Say i use a Complex Force/Space illusion to conjur a giant blue fireball that APPEARS to be 1000 feet away from the target, but really is only 30 feet away, would the target be denied his dex to AC or not get a Ref saving throw if they failed their will save to the fireball (I dunno if attack spells require ranged attack rolls or not. (i mean they think that the harmless ball is hundred and hundreds of feet away, and not be thinking of dodging it when its still so far away.) same goes for an Archery Mage, could i fire an arrow with a space illusion that made them think the arrow was going to their left or something, but really hitting them, therefore they dont dodge the arrow, and no dex to ac. Am i making sense with what im asking?

Similar to Rulesmaster's question above about animal messenger, you can do this spell, but it's not the most effective way to do what you want. Now, from what I'm reading, you want to create an illusion of a fireball (standard visual) that looks like it's far away (complex space), but feels like it's real (complex force). This is a strange idea, honestly. If the illusion looks like it's far away, then the force effect would make the target feel it as if it were far away, which would mean no damage.

One thing I'll need to clarify in the text is how much damage an illusion of an attack spell can do, but I'd say not more than the illusion spell's total MP cost, multiplied by 20%, 40%, or 60%, depending on the complexity of the force illusion.

If you wanted to cast an Evoke Fire spell, combined with an Illusion Space to make a real fireball spell look like it's going a different way, then the person would get first a Will save to disbelief, and then if they fail, they don't get a Reflex save to resist. If they disbelieve, they can make a Reflex save normally for half damage. Your spell would probably cost a total of 8 MP to do 5d6 points of damage, but it would be an interesting way to harm people with evasion. But hmm, most people with evasion also have Uncanny Dodge, which would let them still get a save even if they didn't consciously know they were being attacked.

Oh, and as to your question about evoke spells, you can choose to have either aimed effects (like rays) or area effects (like fireballs).

 

[Verequus]

Sorry, but I run out of time, so I post only some points now... @Ryan: I sent the email to your hotmail account today.

Yeah, there's the Extra MP feat. You get bonus MP equal to your caster level. It's roughly equivalent to the Extra Spell feat from Tome & Blood.

Will be the bonus MPs to the current caster level adjusted or are they frozen?

All MP costs paid for the spell, including spell list enhancements, general enhancements, and metamagic effects, count toward its MP total. You cannot spend more MP on a single spell than your caster level.

I looked in the text again - it seems to be worded in the way, as I understood the text at first, not as you wrote here.

It's 800 instead of 750 because of whim. We just wanted a suitably large range, and 800 is more of a round number. And no, you can't just spend 1 MP for 500 ft., you have to get to long range, and then you can increase the range by 500 ft. per MP thereafter. Really, you didn't think that you could do it as you suggested, did you? That'd be silly.

Actually I wanted to point out, that it isn't clearly forbidden like in FCTF. I would never allowed myself to use the suggested way, but I didn't word my post clearly enough. My mistake.

There are just the four magical skills - Dispel Magic, Divination, Scry, and Spellcraft. We considered a few others, but they're not really necessary, and would end up requiring too many skill points anyway.

No more ordinary skills with MP use like Alchemy?

 

[Haganegiri]

I have a small question, when im choosing my first three spell list, If i choose Illusion i have to choose Illusion: Fire, Illusion: Death, and Illusion: Water as my three list, or do i just choose Illusion?

 

[RangerWickett]

I have a small question, when im choosing my first three spell list, If i choose Illusion i have to choose Illusion: Fire, Illusion: Death, and Illusion: Water as my three list, or do i just choose Illusion?

Each spell list is a single combination of one action type and one object type. So yes, Illusion Fire, Illusion Death, and Illusion Water would require 3 separate spell lists.

You know 6 spell lists if your caster level is 1, or 3 spell lists if your caster level is 1/2 (like a 1st level faithblade). By the time you reach caster level 20, you know 45 spell lists.

In addition to learning spell lists as you level up, you can also make use of spells you don't know, though in limited ways. Mages can write down their signature spells in spellbooks, which lets them sell and share spells with other mages. If you have a spell written down, even if you don't know that spell, you can cast it. Doing so takes one minute and requires a caster level check, but it gives you a lot of flexibility.

(Compare this to scroll-like magic items, which cost much more, but let you cast spells you don't know as a standard action.)

 

[RangerWickett]

Will be the bonus MPs to the current caster level adjusted or are they frozen?

The amount of bonus MP you get from the Extra MP feat increases as your caster level increases.

 

[Haganegiri]

Ranger you are my new god, i loved EoM (gave my DM hell tell he let me us it, then he loved it and forced out other party wizard to use it, which didnt make him happy because he though EoM was lame, but now he preaches it too) and i love this new system just 100% better. Thank you for putting up with my ignorant questions, great job and keep up the superb work!

 

[Haganegiri]

hmmm, how about Wisdom for bonus MPs? Wisdom represents interneally learned natural instincts, and magic is more "from within" with EoM so it seems fitting to me.

How about you need 10 int + 1 int per 2 MPs needing to be spent for spells? (i.e. 11 for 2 MP spells, 12 for 4, 13 for 6, ... 20 for 20 MP spells) requires very little math IMO. a 2 mp spell is reoughly equivalent to a 1st level spell.

Although i have yet to see how all spell list work (only the sampler) I am curious if move earth covers earthquakes, and move water tsunamis and whatnot, and what of the old Poison, Fast Heal, and Regeneration lists? and powerwords? can i still fatigue, blind, etc. opponents?