Enchantment, Compulsion, "Ongoing control"

[Jimlock]

Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.

Charm
A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

Compulsion
A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Protection from Evil
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No; see text
This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects.

First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

Arcane Material Component
A little powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot -diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded.

dIsobedIenCe
Abjuration Level: Bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft . + 5 ft ./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You shield your subject against mind-controlling spells and abili- ties . Disobedience blocks any attempt to exercise mental control over the subject creature, including charm and compulsion effects that grant ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person or a vampire’s dominate ability . The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting a subject affected by disobe- dience, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of this spell . If disobedi- ence ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller becomes able to mentally command the targeted creature .
In addition to protecting the sub- ject, disobedience sends false information to the crea- ture that is attempting to gain control of the subject . The would-be controller must succeed on a Will save or believe that its spell or ability has taken effect and that the target is now under its control . The spell’s subject becomes aware of commands issued by that creature and can choose to act however she pleases, disregarding the would-be controller’s orders or going along with them in a pretense
of obedience .
Material Component: A scrap of tin

So the question is...

Which spells (and effects) fall under the: Enchantment --> Compulsion --> "Ongoing Control"

In the past, I had found an answer on this forum or another (don't remember... couldn't find it anyway...), that "Ongoing Control" meant all Compulsion effects with a duration other than permanent or instantaneous, in a cense that all durations from rounds/level to days/level meant "ongoing" effects/spells.

After careful study, it now seems that this view is wrong, and that ongoing control compulsions are not that vast. In fact, the only SRD spell that falls under this strict category is the "Dominate Person/Monster" one (and all the monster abilities based on this one spell).

Isn't that right? What do you guys think?

 

[Vegepygmy]

What do you guys think?

I think "ongoing control" means that you can make changes to the target's behavior while the spell remains in effect. For example, you can cause the target to dance around a room, and then later decide to make them sit down and stay there. You have "ongoing control" because you can make them do one thing and then another.

If the spell simply causes the target to dance around the room for some period of time, it is ongoing (obviously), but you don't have ongoing control, because you can't make them do anything else.

That's what I think is meant by "ongoing control."

 

[Jack Simth]

I think "ongoing control" means that you can make changes to the target's behavior while the spell remains in effect. For example, you can cause the target to dance around a room, and then later decide to make them sit down and stay there. You have "ongoing control" because you can make them do one thing and then another.

If the spell simply causes the target to dance around the room for some period of time, it is ongoing (obviously), but you don't have ongoing control, because you can't make them do anything else.

That's what I think is meant by "ongoing control."

That's the usual interpretation, yes; so Charm Person grants ongoing control (opposed Charisma check) while Hold Person or Suggestion don't (well... except in very special circumstances, anyway).

I'm surprised you're not asking about the two basic parsings, though:
"including [enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects] that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject" vs. "including enchantment (charm) effects and [enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject]"

 

[Vegepygmy]

That's the usual interpretation, yes; so Charm Person grants ongoing control (opposed Charisma check) while Hold Person or Suggestion don't (well... except in very special circumstances, anyway).

Actually, I don't think charm person grants control at all. "Ongoing control" is discussed under the compulsion subschool (PHB page 173):

Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Charm spells simply change the subject's attitude towards you:

A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

That's why PfE includes both "enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject."

 

[Jack Simth]

Actually, I don't think charm person grants control at all. "Ongoing control" is discussed under the compulsion subschool (PHB page 173):

Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Charm spells simply change the subject's attitude towards you:

A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

That's why PfE includes both "enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject."

And yet, you can force someone to do something completely against their nature with Charm Person, while Enthrall (also a Charm effect!) makes them "Friendly", but doesn't have any clause about forcing them to do stuff with an opposed Charisma check.

 

[Jimlock]

I think "ongoing control" means that you can make changes to the target's behavior while the spell remains in effect. For example, you can cause the target to dance around a room, and then later decide to make them sit down and stay there. You have "ongoing control" because you can make them do one thing and then another.

If the spell simply causes the target to dance around the room for some period of time, it is ongoing (obviously), but you don't have ongoing control, because you can't make them do anything else.

That's what I think is meant by "ongoing control."

agreed.

I'm surprised you're not asking about the two basic parsings, though:
"including [enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects] that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject" vs. "including enchantment (charm) effects and [enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject]"

I don't see any vs there. They both say the same thing.

All Enchantment-Charms + Enchantment-compulsions with "ongoing control"

so Charm Person grants ongoing control (opposed Charisma check) while Hold Person or Suggestion don't (well... except in very special circumstances, anyway).

Actually, I don't think charm person grants control at all. "Ongoing control" is discussed under the compulsion subschool (PHB page 173):

Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Charm spells simply change the subject's attitude towards you:

A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

That's why PfE includes both "enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject."

And yet, you can force someone to do something completely against their nature with Charm Person, while Enthrall (also a Charm effect!) makes them "Friendly", but doesn't have any clause about forcing them to do stuff with an opposed Charisma check.

I agree with Vegepygmy again. Charms don't "control", they alter attitudes. SRD is pretty clear when it distinguishes charms from compulsions. Even if you manage to force someone to act against his nature with a charm effect, this does not mean you are in control of his mind. He acts against his nature because he respects/admires/loves/revers you so that he'd rather please you even if the action is not to his benefit.

...but this debate over charms does not help much, for both spells (PFE + Disobedience) specify that they protect against ALL charms (no matter if one translates "charm" into "mental control" or not).
OTOH they do not grant protection against ALL compulsions. They protect against compulsions that grant "ongoing control" over the subject.

...and even though I 'm 99,9% certain that those two protection spells work as we agreed, I can't help but wonder why they say the following:

or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

to exercise mental control over the subject creature, including charm and compulsion effects that grant ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person or a vampire’s dominate ability.

...So what other "mental control" abilities are there?
It is as if there are a bunch of mental control abilities (and NOT necessarily "ongoing") out there that those two spells protect against, which also INCLUDE charms + ongoing-control-compulsions. It is as if the charms + ongoing-control-compulsions is a set included in the "mental control" package. Even psionic abilities abide to those two enchantment sub-schools, so they can't be psionic powers either.

So what else does this "mental control" package include?

Moreover, when talking about ongoing-control-compulsions, they both mention dominate person (such as...) as if there are more! Personally i don't see any other spell (or spell based effect) that covers those specifications. Are there any others you can think of?

I hope my dubiousness is clear... (and not just stupid! )

 

[Jack Simth]

I don't see any vs there. They both say the same thing.

All Enchantment-Charms + Enchantment-compulsions with "ongoing control"

No, they're not. It's why I threw the brackets in.

To use set notation, one is A union (B intersection C), the other is (A union B) intersection C. (Where A is "Enchantment(Charm) effects", B is "Enchantment (Compulsion) effects", and C is "effects that grant ongoing control"). Note that the second is equivalent to (A Intersection C) Union (B Intersection C), while the first is not. Or in other words, does the "that grant ongoing control" clause apply to Enchantment (Charm) effects, as well? English plain-language listing protocol can have it either way and still be proper grammar.

I agree with Vegepygmy again. Charms don't "control", they alter attitudes. SRD is pretty clear when it distinguishes charms from compulsions. Even if you manage to force someone to act against his nature with a charm effect, this does not mean you are in control of his mind. He acts against his nature because he respects/admires/loves/revers you so that he'd rather please you even if the action is not to his benefit.

And yet, some Charm effects include a specific clause about the other person forcing you to do stuff, while other Charm effects don't.

...but this debate over charms does not help much, for both spells (PFE + Disobedience) specify that they protect against ALL charms (no matter if one translates "charm" into "mental control" or not).

Not necessarily. See above.

...and even though I 'm 99,9% certain that those two protection spells work as we agreed, I can't help but wonder why they say the following:

or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

to exercise mental control over the subject creature, including charm and compulsion effects that grant ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person or a vampire’s dominate ability.

...So what other "mental control" abilities are there?
It is as if there are a bunch of mental control abilities (and NOT necessarily "ongoing") out there that those two spells protect against, which also INCLUDE charms + ongoing-control-compulsions. It is as if the charms + ongoing-control-compulsions is a set included in the "mental control" package. Even psionic abilities abide to those two enchantment sub-schools, so they can't be psionic powers either.

So what else does this "mental control" package include?

There are other ways to mentally control a creature. A creature that's been Commanded (such as with an Evil Cleric and Undead, or a Fire domain Cleric and a fire-subtype creature) establishes mental control by the Cleric over the creature. Outside of core, you also have a few of the spells from the Mother Cyst feat.

 

[Jimlock]

English plain-language listing protocol can have it either way and still be proper grammar.

Indeed, but the point remains that charms not only do they not grant control, but they also have no subcategories... whilst compulsions do (Vegepygmy has underlined those subcategories in his second post).

So IMO, it is natural to assume that "ongoing control" is referring to compulsions ONLY.

And yet, some Charm effects include a specific clause about the other person forcing you to do stuff, while other Charm effects don't.
Not necessarily. See above.

And this is because some charm effects are more powerful than others, none of which grants mental control.

Even if you manage to force someone to act against his nature with a charm effect, this does not mean you are in control of his mind. He acts against his nature because he respects/admires/loves/revers you so that he'd rather please you even if the action is not to his benefit. You've magically affected his mind in a way that he now likes you and considers you a friend. The more he likes you, the more he is going to do for you.

But under no circumstances do you mentally control him. He makes his own decisions based on the induced friendship.

There are other ways to mentally control a creature. A creature that's been Commanded (such as with an Evil Cleric and Undead, or a Fire domain Cleric and a fire-subtype creature) establishes mental control by the Cleric over the creature. Outside of core, you also have a few of the spells from the Mother Cyst feat.

I don't think this is possible with undead and other mindless beings. Mental control, requires a mind to be controlled.

 

[Jimlock]

double post

 

[Jack Simth]

Indeed, but the point remains that charms not only do they not grant control, but they also have no subcategories... whilst compulsions do (Vegepygmy has underlined those subcategories in his second post).

So IMO, it is natural to assume that "ongoing control" is referring to compulsions ONLY.



And this is because some charm effects are more powerful than others, none of which grants mental control.

Even if you manage to force someone to act against his nature with a charm effect, this does not mean you are in control of his mind. He acts against his nature because he respects/admires/loves/revers you so that he'd rather please you even if the action is not to his benefit. You've magically affected his mind in a way that he now likes you and considers you a friend. The more he likes you, the more he is going to do for you.

But under no circumstances do you mentally control him. He makes his own decisions based on the induced friendship.

Eh, you've come to your own conclusions.

I don't think this is possible with undead and other mindless beings. Mental control, requires a mind to be controlled.

1) Most undead aren't mindless. Really, the only Core undead that *are* mindless are Zombies and Skeletons. There's a rather lot of undead that aren't mindless. And you can exercise mental control over mindless skeletons and zombies via Rebuking anyway, even if they don't technically have a mind.
2) That still doesn't stop the effect from potentially applying to Commanded critters of other sorts.

Which does make things interesting, though, in that an Unhallowed area (which applies a Magic Circle Against Good effect....) can prevent an Evil cleric from making actual use of the undead he used the bonus to help rebuke....