Ends justifying the means

[Bedrockgames]

It really should be a question of last resort, not the default solution after suicide.

The fact that she was about to commit suicide before shooting him, just shows me how broken this woman was by the experience, and increases my sense that these were extenuating circumstances. I even went and reviewed the news material on this case in the last hour and it has only strengthened my opinion she did the right thing. He not only had abused the wife for years, but he was trying to force her to lure young women to the house through chat rooms. So the danger even went beyond her own family and into the community. The judge made the right call here IMO.

 

[Kramodlog]

The fact that she was about to commit suicide before shooting him, just shows me how broken this woman was by the experience,

I agree with you here.

and increases my sense that these were extenuating circumstances.

This is where battered wife syndrome comes in.

I even went and reviewed the news material on this case in the last hour and it has only strengthened my opinion she did the right thing. He not only had abused the wife for years, but he was trying to force her to lure young women to the house through chat rooms. So the danger even went beyond her own family and into the community. The judge made the right call here IMO.

I can't agree with you, sorry. People shouldn't take justice into their own hands.

 

[Kramodlog]

I think people have a right to protect themselves and their children.

So do I, we disagree on the standard for self-defense. She had other options.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree with you here. This is where battered wife syndrome comes in.

I can't agree with you, sorry. People shouldn't take justice into their own hands.

Okay, you don't have to agree with me. I think it is understandable that she took matters into her own hands, and feel the judge's decision to suspend the eight year sentence was the correct one.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So do I, we disagree on the standard for self-defense. She had other options.

No, I agree this didn't meet the legal definition of self defense in the US. Clearly she needed to be tried. But in our system of justice, you consider the specific circumstances of the case. In this one, I think she was honestly trying to protect her daughter within the context of a very difficult and abusive situation. That she didn't take these other options is quite understandable, so I would not want her to go to jail over killing the husband.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But to bring this back to the issue of the ends justifying the means. I think people either believe in deontological ethics or they don't. If you believe things are always either right or wrong, black or white, then you won't ever find the ends can justify the means. While I feel the ends justify the means is rarely a good argument for doing something bad, I do think there are times when the ends can justify the means. A cop who kills a gunman on a shooting spree in a mall, is committing a bad act (murder) for a good reason (to save lives and stop the killing). In that case, the ends do justify the means. I think it is very difficult to say a given action is always bad no matter the circumstances. There are going to be times where outcomes and consequences shade the moral value an action.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Okay. It is your right to disagree, but my right to maintain my opinion. I think people have a right to protect themselves and their children. In this case, I believe that is what she was doing.

Normally I would agree with you, but the sequence of actions doesn't seem to support that, or at least not from the start.
The woman knew her husband had child porn. From Danny's description, it is not known for how long she knew. Also, his interest in nazis was more than likely something that was not kept a secret from her. Most people would rather you know they are nazis than into children. In any case, she should have known. Also, the guy had been abusing her. For how long, we don't know. Still, it probably wasn't something new. Chances are the guy had been abusive, maybe not sexually, to his daughter. The woman, knowing all this, decided to kill herself. Maybe she thought it was the only way she could get away from her husband. Maybe she thought if she was dead, her husband couldn't hurt her. Whatever her reasons, she did not take her daughter's, or anyone else's, welfare into consideration.

Yes, she changed her mind and decided to not kill herself, but instead kill the guy. so...

I do not see this as vigilantism, I see it as taking steps to stop someone who posed a very real danger to the daughter. She wasn't trying to administer justice herself, she was trying to keep her daughter safe.

I don't think it was vigilantism, nor do I think it was her trying to protect her daughter. That may be what she said, but that isn't what her behavior before the killing indicates to me. It's quite possible that she killed him to get back at him for all the years of abuse. That he had child porn and could have started to, if he hadn't already, abuse his own daughter seems like a convenient excuse for the murder.

And I think her actions are understandable and not deserving of time in jail. It was correct for her to be tried, but I think sending her to jail would not have been the best outcome here. Had she gone to the police, there was still the possibility he would have molested the daughter (either before the police had a chance to do anything, or if the police could find no reason to arrest him). This action entirely eliminated that possibility. The way I see it, she took that action knowing she might do time, because she thought it protected her daughter more than the alternatives. I do not want to send her to jail for that.

Her actions are understandable, but even understandable actions can be illegal.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I never said her actions were legal, they were not. I stated she should have been tried and convicted. But agreed with the judge to suspend her sentence. She was evaluated by three different professionals and they all recommended she not serve time, so I am inclined to read the suicide thing as showing just how much this man has broken her, but also inclined to believe she changed her mind at the last minute because she was thinking about her daughter and what would happen to her. I won't argue that she made the best choices at each step of the way, but I have a hard time not empathizing with her situation. She isn't someone I'd want to put in jail.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Where are you getting the information about the three professionals evaluating her? I haven't read every page I'm this thread. Was an article actually linked? As far as I remember, Danny just commented he heard about this case

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Her actions are understandable, but even understandable actions can be illegal.

Which is why she was convicted.

The thng is, while battered woman's syndrome may or may not be a real thing, there is currently no consensus on it in the psychological or legal community as to its precise symptoms, and what it means for those who suffer it.

As a result, BWS defenses are rare and even more rarely successful- probably about on par with insanity defenses. (Maybe about 1 in 100 defendants in violent crime cases are allowed to mount an insanity defense....and of those, maybe 1% are successful in gaining an acquittal or diminishing the sentence.)