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Ends justifying the means

There was an article a while back about how all the major, and most of the minor news outlets for their stories from one source. If you look at some articles on different websites, you'll notice they are the same exact article. Fox News may publish an article, and your can find the same article in The Blaze and Washington Post or Wall Street Journal. It's pretty sad that most of these news outlets just but their articles from one place. No one is doing any actual writing any more.
 

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Maybe there is just one news outlet. Have you thought about it?

And remember, always pay with credit cards, this way they can't track you.
 

EscherEnigma

Adventurer
Historical examples? Are we counting self-defense or soldiers defending their homes? Or is that too pedestrian and not nearly grand enough?

Well, along the "grand" line of thinking, if I remember my Egyptian history correctly the reason their pantheon is so fracked up is that it's actually a melding of two (or more) pantheons. Way way back in time what happened was that, to unify the Nile, whoever it was that had influence (can't remember) managed to smash the conflicting pantheons of the various tribes. Now, I'd call that spiritual violence (manipulating religion for earthly gains?) and a pretty terrible means, but the end result (a unified Nile that would last hundreds of years) was a pretty shiny thing.

Now, if you like religious lines, then you have all sorts of wonderful examples... every sword-point conversion is a "ends justify the means" situation... provided the person holding the sword was right. Then there's Christ himself, who (depending on your favored history) was either a revolutionary bringing revelations or a lie concocted by the Romans to try and reign in the Jews. Either way, either he's saving some people by throwing the old followers to the wolves or it's all a lie to manipulate the masses.

Quick swerve to the East and we have the Black Ships forcing Japan to open their doors to the western world at cannon-point. I don't think it's a tough argument to say it's pretty terrible to point a gun at someone's head in the pursuit of money, but the result, that Japan became a first-rate player in the world, is arguably for the betterment of everyone. Of course, they did have that nasty civil war and fling with fascism along the way...

Sticking to the East for a bit but swinging more northerly, we have Russia. They're kind of Case A for doing terrible things in pursuit of supposedly noble intentions. But let's focus on Catherine the Great for a second. Depending on which scandalous versions you like, she basically usurped the throne, had the real king imprisoned, and then eventually had him offed out of spite. But she was *such* a better monarch then he was. Kinda morally questionable to have your hubby chained to a wall and stabbed, but the end result was actually pretty good.

For that matter, probably half of the interesting succession stories involve similar cases. You could probably make a good argument about good ends/bad deeds just based on the monarchies of Europe.

Switching tacks, let's play "what-if"... what-if, when Columbus landed, the natives killed him and his crew, burned the ships to the ground, and hid all the evidence? Think of how many of them would have been saved if Columbus's life had been cut so short. Would Spain have sent another vessel? Possibly... but quite possibly not. After all, they all had a pretty good idea that it could be done, but it was still risky enough that Columbus's voyage was kind of a big deal. If he had just fallen off the edge of the world the colonization of the Americas by Europe could have been pushed back by a century or more, and who knows what would have happened then? For that matter, if the Indians had just been unquestionably violent with the Europeans from the start they could have saved their civilizations from destruction. Would that have been a "good end" even if it meant slaughtering every pale-skinned person (bastard or saint) that landed on their shore?

Now, in any and all of what I've said, could a different choice had a "better" result? Oh, quite possibly. But the choosing between two unequal goods is a different question.
 

Zombie_Babies

First Post
Again, I think the leaving introduced a number of complications and we are dealing with a woman who had been abused by the man. So I just don't think she had the luxury of thinking through this from our safe vantage point. Also, you are assuming the best case scenario. If she left and went to the cops, it was not a certainty the police would get a warrant and not a certainty that they would find the child porn (he could have gotten rid of it for example----same with the bomb material). The bottom line is, if she wanted to ensure the safety of her daughter from this man, the most effective thing to do was kill him in his sleep. And that is what she did. Now she could have gone to cops, she could have tried to leave, and I think those are preferable options, but I understand why she might not have, and I think it is unjust to imprison her when she was trying to stop an abusive man who expressed interest in pedophilia and was amassing bomb material. The problem with your calculation is had she made this her last resort, she might not have had the chance to employ it. He could have killed her or molested the daughter in the interim.

The bottom line is that she tried nothing else. She went directly to murder.
 

Zombie_Babies

First Post
I never said her actions were legal, they were not. I stated she should have been tried and convicted. But agreed with the judge to suspend her sentence. She was evaluated by three different professionals and they all recommended she not serve time, so I am inclined to read the suicide thing as showing just how much this man has broken her, but also inclined to believe she changed her mind at the last minute because she was thinking about her daughter and what would happen to her. I won't argue that she made the best choices at each step of the way, but I have a hard time not empathizing with her situation. She isn't someone I'd want to put in jail.

Bold added.

I've seen this line of reasoning here a couple of times now and it's got me curious as I see it as rather dangerous. The number of people supporting a position - be they experts or not - means nothing about the correctness of their belief. If it did, all the Jews would be dead.

Sorry for the diversion from the topic (it's an interesting one) but this really gets to me. I've never seen 'well so and so says' used so often to bolster a position. People can and do say anything they want to - especially when they're paid to do it.
 

Bold added.

I've seen this line of reasoning here a couple of times now and it's got me curious as I see it as rather dangerous. The number of people supporting a position - be they experts or not - means nothing about the correctness of their belief. If it did, all the Jews would be dead.

Sorry for the diversion from the topic (it's an interesting one) but this really gets to me. I've never seen 'well so and so says' used so often to bolster a position. People can and do say anything they want to - especially when they're paid to do it.

The number is important because one factor being weighed is her mental state due to the abuse she suffered. If you have three experts recommending no jail time, then that is something to consider in your overall decision making. We dont know the details because the news article is so lean. These may have been experts brought in by the defense, or they may not have been, we do not know. But like i said, the judge seems to have agreed with their conclusion, and what we do know of the case (the husband was abusive for years, she almost killed herself, etc also appears to lend support to their opinions).
 

The bottom line is that she tried nothing else. She went directly to murder.

No one is disputing that. This isn't like fixing a radio, this was a crucial life and death decision. You dont get that many chances when you are battered wife and your husband is going to molest your child to make the best choice. There other options, obviously for whatever reason she didn't take them, but i believe its because she felt this was the best way to make sure her daughter was safe. Given her mental state, given the abuse she suffered, given that the husband was clearly eying the daughter, i feel a conviction with suspended sentence was the best outcome here.
 

Zombie_Babies

First Post
The number is important because one factor being weighed is her mental state due to the abuse she suffered. If you have three experts recommending no jail time, then that is something to consider in your overall decision making. We dont know the details because the news article is so lean. These may have been experts brought in by the defense, or they may not have been, we do not know. But like i said, the judge seems to have agreed with their conclusion, and what we do know of the case (the husband was abusive for years, she almost killed herself, etc also appears to lend support to their opinions).

If the judge heard them then they were part of the trial. Who hired them becomes a pretty important bit of info. Basically, IMO, there's not enough evidence to suggest that they were definitely on the level - whether it was one, three or a hundred people.
 

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