Essentials: Magic Item Rarity Explained, it's actually good!

[eamon]

If items are rare because no-one can get them, a 5% finders fee will work fine for the merchant, they already have five people who've asked after a flametongue sword, so getting one into their hands is valuable. Meanwhile, getting a +2 sword into their hands is slightly pointless when they have 4 gathering dust.

If items are rare and thus hard to find, then the act of finding is valuable - the salesman can make a far, far greater markup because there's little competition. Also, the risk to the salesman is fairly high since the market is less fluid.

Items that everyone has and sells (particularly non-degradable goods which have a high value-density) are extremely fluid (a small risk) and there's heavy competition in the market and finally the salesman is providing little added value (since finding the item is easy) - hence the markup must be minimal. Sometimes these things end up being called trade goods.

If this doesn't make sense, look around in any supermarket; the basics are often sold at-cost or even below cost to attract customers and provide sufficient scale. Luxury goods have a higher markup.

 

[vagabundo]

If items are rare and thus hard to find, then the act of finding is valuable - the salesman can make a far, far greater markup because there's little competition. Also, the risk to the salesman is fairly high since the market is less fluid.

Items that everyone has and sells (particularly non-degradable goods which have a high value-density) are extremely fluid (a small risk) and there's heavy competition in the market and finally the salesman is providing little added value (since finding the item is easy) - hence the markup must be minimal. Sometimes these things end up being called trade goods.

If this doesn't make sense, look around in any supermarket; the basics are often sold at-cost or even below cost to attract customers and provide sufficient scale. Luxury goods have a higher markup.

You've just argued against your own point. But I suppose it depends who you label as the Salesman. For Rare items the market is determining the price since they are so hard to make, so the 100% markup makes sense, someone is looking to buy any of these power items. Anyway I wouldn't apply supermarket/mass-market economics to what is effectively a cottage industry.

This model for magic items is a great start/end point for most games, not to complicated to remember, not fiddly to manage, but provides some additional motivators in the game; most groups couldn't give a monkey's about DND economics. The previous 4e magic system was a little too flat.

 

[Neonchameleon]

There's one thing that worries me. As I read it, some of the most powerful items *cough*StaffOfRuin*cough* are common. And some of the more pointless ones ... aren't. I hope there's item level tweaking as well as those guidelines.

 

[Aegeri]

I'm not at all sure what eamon's arguing anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's misread what the items sell for.

Vendors sell an item "at cost", which we know is very roughly 360gp or so for a level 1 item. When they buy your used level 1 scrubby item, it's worth only 25% of its value.

For an uncommon item, it's worth 50% of its value. It's not as easy to make and finding a buyer will be a lot easier than a common item.

For a rare item, it would be worth a full 100% of its value. It's rare and hard to get, so a vendor knows he can find someone willing to pay a higher price for it (as it can't be made and is damn hard to find). This means that a rare item is worth a LOT more than a common item, which has a narrow profit margin (also bearing in mind that magic items are not a high demand item to begin with).

 

[eamon]

I'm not at all sure what eamon's arguing anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's misread what the items sell for.

Not at all; I'm arguing that the more common the item, the smaller the gap between selling and buying price - based on reality, common sense, and economics 101. I don't understand why this should be any different in a fantasy world. The actual rules have the reverse relationship.

Vendors sell an item "at cost", which we know is very roughly 360gp or so for a level 1 item. When they buy your used level 1 scrubby item, it's worth only 25% of its value.

Obviously, on average vendors don't sell an item "at cost". But, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and they sell a level 1 magic item for the same price it costs them to procure - which means it costs them 360gp normally to procure such an item. That means that any price below 360gp is actually a good deal for them - they're getting the item cheaper than usual! If indeed it usually costs 360gp to procure a common level 1 magic item, then a shopkeep has a very weak bargaining position - if he won't buy it for near that price, then any other shopkeer could bid higher - after all it's a common item, and every magic item shopkeep deals in them since every combatant or adventurer with sufficient resources will want one.

For an uncommon item, it's worth 50% of its value. It's not as easy to make and finding a buyer will be a lot easier than a common item.

You're confusing price with fluidity. If it's easy to find a buyer and hard to procure, that's a sign that the price is too low - i.e. not a market equilibrium. If the market isn't fluid, then buying and selling is risky business and takes more effort - the markup will need to be greater.

The only leap of faith I'm making in this argument is that common items have a more fluid market than less common items - not exactly an unreasonable assumption, it seems to me.

Common magic items don't degrade over time (both mechanically and mythically), so the argument that the item is "used" hardly matters.

 

[vagabundo]

I'm not at all sure what eamon's arguing anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's misread what the items sell for.

Vendors sell an item "at cost", which we know is very roughly 360gp or so for a level 1 item. When they buy your used level 1 scrubby item, it's worth only 25% of its value.

For an uncommon item, it's worth 50% of its value. It's not as easy to make and finding a buyer will be a lot easier than a common item.

For a rare item, it would be worth a full 100% of its value. It's rare and hard to get, so a vendor knows he can find someone willing to pay a higher price for it (as it can't be made and is damn hard to find). This means that a rare item is worth a LOT more than a common item, which has a narrow profit margin (also bearing in mind that magic items are not a high demand item to begin with).

I believe he is arguing that the Rare items will be hard to shift so a buyer will only offer 20% and the common items will be easy to shift and so should be bought by the middle man for 90%-100% of their listed price.

All this is based on real world retail economics. I may be wrong but I believe that is what he is stating.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, assuming a 'rare' level 15 item is the same base cost as a 'common' level 15 item.....

20% has always been pretty low, but that is no change so I'm not gonna argue it.

50% for an uncommon item (which will be less than 50% of treasure, but maybe near 45%), is a large markup in trade-in value for a party. SO the merchant sells it for 2.5 times the base price.

100% for a rare item, of which a 5 person party will find 15 in their career, is great, and the merchant must be selling it a lot higher, like 5 times the base price?

So more or less it is better for the party, but they are still getting 20%

But if there are rules to quest to make such items, by gathering components and such, I am all for it.

 

[Aegeri]

Obviously, on average vendors don't sell an item "at cost".

Actually they do. Otherwise would you like to explain why the cost for a level 1 magical item with the enchant item ritual is identical to one made in a store? I mean, they don't produce it out of thin air and if your PC can make it using the *same* ritual, why is it they can do it far cheaper than your PC can?

So "obviously" magic items are sold pretty close to what their made for, because the market is small (adventurers are extraordinary people, not your average peasant) and there is a big investment in making magic items for such a limited market. Hence the more rare the more valued.

And that's precisely the system we're working on.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and they sell a level 1 magic item for the same price it costs them to procure - which means it costs them 360gp normally to procure such an item. That means that any price below 360gp is actually a good deal for them - they're getting the item cheaper than usual!

Yes, for a far smaller and niche market. We're not talking about the Forgotten Realms where peasants are so bored they have nothing better to do than buy vorpal scythes of wheat cutting +6 and pitchforks of stabbing +6.

after all it's a common item, and every magic item shopkeep deals in them since every combatant or adventurer with sufficient resources will want one.

Which is an extraordinarily niche market. Considering as well common items can be made by anyone: Someone with enough resources won't buy items from a merchant. They will make their own.

If it's easy to find a buyer and hard to procure

That's precisely the situation with rare items, but not common items. It is hard to find a buyer but it is easy to get common items.

Common magic items don't degrade over time (both mechanically and mythically), so the argument that the item is "used" hardly matters.

Common items are easy to manufacture and produce, they have a low market though making them far less valuable. Selling a merchant something that is easy to make themselves, presumably however they do it cheaper than PCs (see the point about the enchant ritual) is going to lead to a lesser sell price to them. They'll take it, but it's not special or interesting - given this is a niche market to begin with there is no logic suggesting they would buy it anywhere near where they sell it.

For example I sold some DVDs to Cash Converters. I paid $30 NZ. DVDs are very common (I am sure you'll agree). For some reason, they didn't give me $30 NZ for them! They gave me $5 for them. I mean, according to your utterly zany logic they should be giving me $30 for them - but that's not how reality actually works.

On the other hand I sold a very rare model that I had when I was a kid to a pawnbroker. It's immensely rare and hard to get, so what I got for it was almost $300 NZ for something that cost me $7.50 when I was a kid.

Merchants aren't going to pay less for rare, powerful magical items that they rarely see. They aren't going to give you the same price for items they manufacture and sell trivially that they can easily get.

Your argument fails to make any sense whatsoever.

I believe he is arguing that the Rare items will be hard to shift so a buyer will only offer 20% and the common items will be easy to shift

His argument makes zero sense. Rare items are powerful and highly desired in DnD worlds. How many quests come down to finding ancient artifacts and lost items? Look at Morgrave University in Eberron, that routinely funds expeditions into the heart of Xen'drik looking for stuff the giants left behind. Do you think a +1 longsword is going to interest them over a long lost item whose secrets to manufacture have been completely lost?

I mean, really?

Really?

Heck, even the Forgotten Realms has a history of delving into long lost places to find better artifacts and lost knowledge. So it even applies to the world with +6 vorpal pitchforks. Especially when making said items isn't actually possible and magical items make a huge difference to your power. As I mentioned above, people will pay more for what is actually harder to get in reality - not what is common.

Common items are a nice market as it is. But rare powerful items are rather like having the better, more superior weapons that give you a distinct advantage over your competitors. If you have the latest artifact of doom to research, you're getting a big leg up over everyone else using common items because we already know that rare weapons aren't just magic things - they are BETTER magic things. A merchant can almost certainly find something who wants to buy a rare, unique artifact that will vastly improve said individuals power or status. Does that same merchant really want another +1 longsword onto the pile of +1 longswords he already has?

 

[vagabundo]

His argument makes zero sense. Rare items are powerful and highly desired in DnD worlds. How many quests come down to finding ancient artifacts and lost items? Look at Morgrave University in Eberron, that routinely funds expeditions into the heart of Xen'drik looking for stuff the giants left behind. Do you think a +1 longsword is going to interest them over a long lost item whose secrets to manufacture have been completely lost?

I mean, really?

Really?

Heck, even the Forgotten Realms has a history of delving into long lost places to find better artifacts and lost knowledge. So it even applies to the world with +6 vorpal pitchforks.
Common items are a nice market as it is. But rare powerful items are rather like having the better, more superior weapons that give you a distinct advantage over your competitors. If you have the latest artifact of doom to research, you're getting a big leg up over everyone else using common items because we already know that rare weapons aren't just magic things - they are BETTER magic things. A merchant can almost certainly find something who wants to buy a rare, unique artifact that will vastly improve said individuals power or status. Does that same merchant really want another +1 longsword onto the pile of +1 longswords he already has?

Maybe i'm picking him up wrong, but i love the new model. It fits perfectly with DND and - as you mentioned - with the types of quests that are a staple of Fantasy literature.

This is definitely a step forward.

And as Dice4hire mentioned we don't know how much the vendors sell uncommon and rare items on for, that is something the DM would decide. We only know what they buy the items for and how much it would cost to make them - if you could manage to find the rare ingredients.

There is a lot of leeway there for the DM to make this believable and lots of scope for adventure; and that is what this all boils down to in the end.

 

[Aegeri]

I love the new model as well. I love it because it makes perfect sense. Why fund an expedition to Xen'drik for a +5 weapon that anyone can make? But there are more than enough individuals willing to pay for something that cannot be got any other way. That bears repeating. With the change to items, a rare item is something nobody sees often and is genuinely difficult to get. Hence, merchants, nobles, individuals with a bent for more power and similar will want it. They will want it because you cannot get it any other way. Even high level common items like +5 swords can still be made by anyone who can get sufficient materials or time to do so. Making a +5 weapon that has considerably more powerful properties and gives a big advantage over those plain +5 swords? Now that's something worth getting adventurers to do (or paying a higher price for from someone who can get it or acquire it).

It also just fits better to me, that you don't need to go artifact level anymore to make relevant quest items. A rare item can accomplish the same place, without being as complicated mechanically but just as relevant mechanics/fluff wise.