D&D 5E Essentials: More like 3.9e than 4.5e (link inside)

[MerricB]

For that to be the case, they would have to make the new wizard more complex than the old wizard, since right now the old fighter and the old wizard are close to being on par. (I suppose the old wizard is a little more complex, what with the spellbook, but it's a very minor difference.)

My experience is that the 4e fighter is significantly more complex than the 4e wizard, especially to explain to new players, because of the complexity of Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority.

In previous editions, the Fighter was the least complex character who was a very good introductory character choice. In 4e, it's pretty much the most complex (PHB1) character you can give someone. (The simplest is probably the ranger).

In actual fact, I consider this to be a failure of design. The two powers are also easily confused. Consider this:

* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can't attack it.
* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can attack it, but it doesn't stop moving. The fighter doesn't get a bonus to hit.
* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can attack it, and it stops moving if he hits. The fighter also gets a bonus to hit.

All three of those are true for the fighter, with slight variations depending on words like "Shift", "Move", "Opportunity Attack" and "Immediate Interrupt".

That is truly terrible design, and it is a blot on a lot of excellent work elsewhere in 4e design.

 

[The Human Target]

My experience is that the 4e fighter is significantly more complex than the 4e wizard, especially to explain to new players, because of the complexity of Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority.

In previous editions, the Fighter was the least complex character who was a very good introductory character choice. In 4e, it's pretty much the most complex (PHB1) character you can give someone. (The simplest is probably the ranger).

In actual fact, I consider this to be a failure of design. The two powers are also easily confused. Consider this:

* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can't attack it.
* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can attack it, but it doesn't stop moving. The fighter doesn't get a bonus to hit.
* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can attack it, and it stops moving if he hits. The fighter also gets a bonus to hit.

All three of those are true for the fighter, with slight variations depending on words like "Shift", "Move", "Opportunity Attack" and "Immediate Interrupt".

That is truly terrible design, and it is a blot on a lot of excellent work elsewhere in 4e design.

While I totally agree with this, I still think you can make a maybe not more complicated but for sure overwhelming to a noob wizard in 4E.

 

[MerricB]

While I totally agree with this, I still think you can make a maybe not more complicated but for sure overwhelming to a noob wizard in 4E.

Possibly. (Using just the PHB? At 1st level?)

To some extent, I feel that the 4e wizard, while it can become complicated, does at least allow simple builds. If a power is not understood, at least a different power can be chosen. Alas, every single fighter in 4e suffers from the complication of its defender features.

A simpler wizard, while perhaps not strictly needed, isn't something to be frightened of IMO.

A simpler fighter is required.

As for outsider's contention that every class should have the same level of rules complexity, it's something I oppose wholeheartedly.

Cheers!

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

As long as complexity is distributed independently of role and power source, I'll be a happy camper. A simpler defender is welcome, as long as I don't have to give up a "complex" one. A simpler fighter is welcome, as long as I don't have to give up the current one (barring some clarifications, as pointed out by MerricB). A ridiculously complex wizard is fine if people want such a thing, as long as the current one is still available. And so on.

Luckily, this seems to be the mandate they are working from, so Snoopy Dances for all.

 

[Melkor]

GROAN. I absolutely HATE this. They could have given into pretty much ANY demand of the non-adopters other than this one, and I'd have supported it, but putting every class on an equal(roughly) level of system mastery was by far the best thing they did in 4e.

I disagree.

In my opinion, giving every class something valid to do during a combat encounter, so that some players weren't sidelined, while others tended to steal the show, was by far the best thing they did in 4E.

That isn't necessarily tied to "equal system mastery".

Not everyone likes the system mastery involved in knowing every feat, power, spell, ritual needed to play a 4E character to the fullest...some people just want to play a fighter who swings a sword and does lots of damage. That is the thing that has kept some members of my group from playing 4E since right after it came out, and I am hoping the Essentials line helps to get us playing D&D again.

 

[Scribble]

I disagree.

In my opinion, giving every class something valid to do during a combat encounter, so that some players weren't sidelined, while others tended to steal the show, was by far the best thing they did in 4E.

That isn't necessarily tied to "equal system mastery".

Not everyone likes the system mastery involved in knowing every feat, power, spell, ritual needed to play a 4E character to the fullest...some people just want to play a fighter who swings a sword and does lots of damage. That is the thing that has kept some members of my group from playing 4E since right after it came out, and I am hoping the Essentials line helps to get us playing D&D again.

It looks to me like they're giving some players the option to just "pick a dang class and get on with it" basically.

Instead of your the player having to read through all the powers and pick the one that fits best with his other options, and future options... WoTC does a lot of the work for you.

Ok this level you get the Super Fist Smash power!

Next level: "Ok this level pick one of these two powers from the fist smashing academy list!

Next Level: This level you get Ultra Super Fist Smash

It might not end up being the ultra fine tuned rules mastery creation someone good at such things could put together, but it will probably be serviceable, and require not a ton of effort while still letting you feel like you've made some input on how your character plays out.

Like asking a power gamer friend to help you build a dude, he has a list of "DUDE YOU GOTTA TAKE THESE!!!" powers, but every so often says "Ok these powers here are all pretty much equal... Which do you think sounds cooler?"

So now you can choose to either fine tune tweak your guy old style, or let WoTC do a lot of the work New Style.

It also feels a little different because WoTC can also play with the power progression, and like "swap out" stuff to equal out powers.

So not only is your friend good at building dudes- he also gets to tinker with the mechanics.

Win win.

 

[mudbunny]

Ok this level you get the Super Fist Smash power!

Next level: "Ok this level pick one of these two powers from the fist smashing academy list!

Next Level: This level you get Ultra Super Fist Smash

<snip>

Win win.

Especially if you can make your friends say "kamehameha!!!!" when they use Ultra Super Fist Smash.

 

[cdrcjsn]

In actual fact, I consider this to be a failure of design. The two powers are also easily confused. Consider this:

* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can't attack it.
* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can attack it, but it doesn't stop moving. The fighter doesn't get a bonus to hit.
* A monster moves away from the fighter, and the fighter can attack it, and it stops moving if he hits. The fighter also gets a bonus to hit.

All three of those are true for the fighter, with slight variations depending on words like "Shift", "Move", "Opportunity Attack" and "Immediate Interrupt".

That is truly terrible design, and it is a blot on a lot of excellent work elsewhere in 4e design.

I wonder if the essentials kobold (the quintessential low level monster) is going to change their "shifty" abilities. I recall trying to adjudicate the interaction of movement and interrupts/reactions as being more of a game stopper than the fighter class features.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I wonder if the essentials kobold (the quintessential low level monster) is going to change their "shifty" abilities. I recall trying to adjudicate the interaction of movement and interrupts/reactions as being more of a game stopper than the fighter class features.

Oh! I hope not, I still get a warm feeling remembering the party paladin being almost reduced to tears and throwing rocks at the Dragonshields in one of the early KOTS encouters.

 

[MerricB]

I wonder if the essentials kobold (the quintessential low level monster) is going to change their "shifty" abilities. I recall trying to adjudicate the interaction of movement and interrupts/reactions as being more of a game stopper than the fighter class features.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised... but, on the other hand, it might just be better explained. I'm not so worried about giving the DM slightly more complex actions to adjudicate, especially if there's a note in the text explaining how it works. A new player really doesn't need the complexity, though.

Cheers!