Everybody Cheats?

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs? Yes, Everybody Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion: Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is...

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs?

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Yes, Everybody​

Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion:
Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is extremely common--almost everyone cheats and this dishonesty is implicitly condoned in most situation. The large majority of interviewees admitted to cheating, and in the games I played, I cheated as well.
Fine makes it a point of clarify that cheating doesn't carry quite the same implications in role-playing as it does in other games:
Since FRP players are not competing against each other, but are cooperating, cheating does not have the same effect on the game balance. For example, a player who cheats in claiming that he has rolled a high number while his character is fighting a dragon or alien spaceship not only helps himself, but also his party, since any member of the party might be killed. Thus the players have little incentive to prevent this cheating.
The interesting thing about cheating is that if everyone cheats, parity is maintained among the group. But when cheating is rampant, any player who adheres slavishly to die-roll results has "bad luck" with the dice. Cheating takes place in a variety of ways involving dice (the variable component PCs can't control), such as saying the dice is cocked, illegible, someone bumped the table, it rolled off a book or dice tray, etc.

Why Cheat?​

One of the challenges with early D&D is that co-creator Gary Gygax's design used rarity to make things difficult. This form of design reasoned that the odds against certain die rolls justified making powerful character builds rare, and it all began with character creation.

Character creation was originally 3d6 for each attribute, full stop. With the advent of computers, players could automate this rolling process by rapidly randomizing thousands of characters until they got the combination of numbers they wanted. These numbers dictated the PC's class (paladins, for example, required a very strict set of high attributes). Psionics too, in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, required a specific set of attributes that made it possible to spontaneously manifest psionic powers. Later forms of character generation introduced character choice: 4d6 assigned to certain attributes, a point buy system, etc. But in the early incarnations of the game, it was in the player's interest, if she wanted to play a paladin or to play a psionic, to roll a lot -- or just cheat (using the dice pictured above).

Game masters have a phrase for cheating known as "fudging" a roll; the concept of fudging means the game master may ignore a roll for or against PCs if it doesn't fit the kind of game he's trying to create. PCs can be given extra chances to reroll, or the roll could be interpreted differently. This "fudging" happens in an ebb and flow as the GM determines the difficulty and if the die rolls support the narrative.

GM screens were used as a reference tool with relevant charts and to prevent players from seeing maps and notes. But they also helped make it easier for GMs to fudge rolls. A poll on RPG.net shows that over 90% of GMs fudged rolls behind the screen.

Cheating Is the Rule​

One of Fifth Edition's innovations was adopting a common form of cheating -- the reroll -- by creating advantage. PCs now have rules encouraging them to roll the dice twice, something they've been doing for decades with the right excuse.

When it comes to cheating, it seems like we've all been doing it. But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I admit to being a bit of a whore to point-buy, who wants a dull, boring character?

No character has to be dull and boring. Characters are what you make of them ;)

Seriously, though, some editions had minimum bonus rules that if you didn't achieve, allowed you to re-roll. Those are good ideas. You don't have to be mighty in stats to be exciting and fun to play, but a seriously bad roll is usually a drag.

For me, though, point buy and array result in PCs that are too similar in stats to one another, and feel contrived(which they are since you pick them). I much prefer the unknown of a roll, even if that roll generates numbers that you can get via an array or point buy.

In the 5e game that we are playing, we have 2 players rolling hit points, and 2 taking the average. We all rolled stats. So far at 5th level my rolls have me at +1 hit point over taking the average. Woohoo!! Power rolls for the win!

But we just love to roll the dice, and the game just wouldn't be the game, without it.

Agreed.
 

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Les Moore

Explorer
It's interesting to see the characters different people create with the point buy system. Sometimes even more interesting to see what they
consider the "dump stat" for different heroes.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I was trying out his Index Card RPG system - which is essentially a stripped-down bare-naked skeleton D&D d20 system - and I can't recall those sort of DCs. I don't think it would be that hard though to use a 20 on a d20 and then use a d10 for the additional values.

There is another system mechanic that helps though: easy and hard. When something is "easy" in the encounter, then it is the encounter DC minus 3. When something is "hard" in the encounter, then it is the encounter DC plus 3. So you can distinguish between bosses and mooks through easy and hard.


Just take a small dry erase board and write the DC. Using a D20 is cute but not functional across the entire scope of the game system
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's interesting to see the characters different people create with the point buy system. Sometimes even more interesting to see what they
consider the "dump stat" for different heroes.

I have my players roll stats straight down the line. Then I allow them to swap one pair of stats so that they can put their highest number in the prime stat for the class that they want to play. Most of the time their low score is chosen for them.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The only thing I hide from my players, are unexplored rooms of a dungeon, the plot that I've prepared for them, and some stats of opponents. I've noticed that the DM screen is usually just there to indicate my authority as a DM, but I might as well put it aside. [...] Rolls for random tables I tend to make behind the DM screen, since the outcome of the dice has no meaning to the players, since they don't know what is on the random tables.
Were I to take down my DM screen I'd immediately have to replace it with something similar so I'd have somewhere to tack up all my tables, charts, notes, etc., that if put in a binder would grind things to a halt as I'd be constantly flipping through the binder. (and I also have a binder, for things not needed as often)

Also the players use it to tack up info on their side relevant to them e.g. watchkeeping order.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
As far as "keeping the numbers secret" goes, in 5e, monster HP are standardized - well, that's been true since 3e. And, damage isn't random either - your monsters deal average damage. Granted, I think most groups randomize damage.
In 3e-4e-5e monster h.p. are standardized only if you want them to be. Ditto damage.

But, don't you tell your player's the save DC when they make a saving throw? I do. "The spell hits you, make a DC X Wisdom save to resist".
Never.

I just say something like "Somer, you need a saving throw". Sometimes she'll in-character know or guess against what, other times (e.g. a hidden caster or any psionic attack) she won't have a clue. EDIT to add: I do it this way because in cases where it's not obvious what she's saving against, if she fails the other characters might not know what happened to her and-or what caused it, only that she's down or acting funny or whatever. And because the characters don't know the players shouldn't know either.

I've never understood the idea that DM's need to hide information. Get it out there. The players are smart enough that they're going to know the monster's AC after the second or third attack anyway, most of the time, so, why keep it a secret? Playing keep away with game stuff just slows the game down.
On a philosophical level I'm of the exact opposite view: the players should know and-or have to deal with the least amount of game mechanics possible. That's what the DM is there for, to worry about that stuff; and the push - that started with 3e and continues today - to move mechanics to the player side irks me to no end, particularly as a player.

As a player I also really enjoy the sense of mystery that this secrecy can bring. Had I not started DMing I'd be quite happy to never have learned a lot of the DM-side rules and mechanics, and just gone on playing.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Yep, time honoured tradition, especially if you hate mapping. Look vague, wander about thoroughly lost, until GM takes pity....

Course that only works for GMs with a heart...:blush:
"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

<move>

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

<move>

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

<move>

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

<move>

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

...

A few years ago I actually worked this into a dungeon I wrote and ran..... :)

Lan-"heartless"-efan
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Maybe for D&D, but I was playing in ICRPG with its own idiomatic set of norms. The book recommends most DCs at around 12-15.

That's fine, but I was replying to a post that was specifically referring to D&D, so my reply needs to be taken in that context and not yours.

Agreed if all DC's ever are going to be under 20, then using a D20 is fine.

Be well
KB
 

Hussar

Legend
I have my players roll stats straight down the line. Then I allow them to swap one pair of stats so that they can put their highest number in the prime stat for the class that they want to play. Most of the time their low score is chosen for them.

As I recall, don't you roll 5d6 drop 2 for chargen? I seen to recall that from another conversation.

So, realistically, not really much of a chance of a low score and very good chances of high scores. IOW, cheating in anything but name.
 

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