Evil Monster Ancestries - Yay or Nay?

Celebrim

Legend
You seem to be confused about what objective morals mean.

Except I am not.

An author having a point of view is not that.

Except within the space of a fiction, if the author within that fiction asserts the objective truth of morality or ethics, then it really is. If the story is an Aesop, as many of them are, then the author is also asserting that what he describes in the fictional realm has a correspondence in the real one. You don't have to believe that is true, and that's fine, and you don't have to agree in part or in whole with any author's claim, but that's a wholly different claim than you claiming that objective morality leads to a boring story.

The claim that there exists an objective morality does not require everyone to believe that it exists. Lots of things that are true (or probably true) don't have universal agreement. Many authors write explicitly for the purpose of swaying the reader to believe that the morality they advance in the story is an objective one. You don't have to be so swayed, but that's not the same as saying that a story coming from a place of objective morality tends to be a boring one.

Indeed, it's quite possible to take the tact that the reason the overwhelming majority of popular fiction down the centuries advances some sort of objective morality or the other is that people typically enjoy that more than the moral ambiguity of daily life. Maybe that's right and maybe it isn't, but that such a philosophy has been advanced by many people suggests that your take that stories coming from a place of objective morality or which incorporate an objective morality in the setting (whether it's Harry Potter or The Wizard of Oz or whatever it is) are boring is a radical opinion shared by few.

Furthermore, even if one would think that this is what it means, in RPGs we do not have a sole author. It is group activity so it is counterproductive for the GM to shove their morals to the players via the game's objective morality.

That's a straw man. If the player has agency, then they can assert whatever they want. Indeed, the alignment framework explicitly validates that they do that. Could theoretically a GM be an angry god dispensing punishment on anyone that strayed out of what he saw as objective truth? Absolutely. And yes, I've had experience with the GM as Satan setting out to punish anyone for daring to have a moral standard instead of being pragmatic murder hobos that he believed was the objectively correct way to play within the setting. But neither of those things are requirements of the game and indeed are dysfunctional DMing not endorsed by the text, including the Gygaxian text.

Except that the game says that they're objectively wrong!

Except that it doesn't do so. Not anywhere. No where does it say that being Chaotic Neutral is objectively wrong. Indeed, to the extent that the Great Wheel cosmology pushes a philosophy at all it pushes Neutrality. Great wheel cosmology comes very close to dabbling with the idea that balance is the definition of virtue and extremism the definition of wrong. But even that is an inference from the fact that it tends to display the cosmology as a uniform wheel like a round table around which peers are sat. It's not a necessary fact of the setting, and certainly nothing that the text explicitly mandates or validates.

It's you adding to the game for your own reasons that would say that. Don't blame the game or the alignment system for your take on it.
 

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Theory of Games

Disaffected Game Warrior
The world of CresthavenRPG brims with humanoids, elves, dwarves, and other familiar fantasy races. But something seems to be missing: monstrous options like goblins, orcs, or even demonkind! This begs the question: why aren’t evil monster ancestries a core part of CresthavenRPG?
Yeah why's not?
From the very beginning, I decided to root Cresthaven RPG in the classic heroic fantasy tradition. For me, this meant creating a world where heroes were clearly good and monsters were inherently evil. This design choice helped establish a consistent atmosphere throughout the game. Players could effortlessly identify with their characters as champions of virtue.
Which classic heroic fantasy tradition? You mean like Classical Mythology? Or the Sword & Sorcery genre? Maybe Lord of the Rings? Take a closer look at those "heroes" and you'll see outright rogues, liars and bullies. All of them were capable of evil and some did evil deeds which they rationalized like people do. It's those flawed protagonists and idealistic antagonists that we end up loving because they remind us of us. Even Superman has killed and did it for the "greater good" but wasn't that the same song Thanos was singing? Ned Flanders is NOT who you think he is. But I get your point: it's easier to slip into character if the character's Sir Galahad instead of Conan.
I worried that introducing playable evil monstrous ancestries could disrupt the established narrative. I envisioned a scenario where a valiant party ventured forth on noble quests, accompanied by a goblin. Such a scenario might clash with the core theme of heroism and push the boundaries of believability. Ultimately, I decided to avoid this dissonance.
But you wrote that the established narrative was based on classic heroic fantasy tradition, right? The stuff from mythology and literary fiction? Name me some "good" demons? Friendly sea-monsters not employed by Disney? Amicable giants? The old traditional stories had some really nasty monsters that did really nasty things. Hell even the ancient gods were sketchy cheating on each other, starting wars and changing people they didn't like into monsters. Evil monsters. Because you were better looking than a god. Traditional heroic fantasy is some murky naughty word when it comes to morality.

On goblin: that's a great storytelling opportunity: that little monster could explain what it is to be a monster and what morality truly is to those called monsters. It could help the PCs overcome their own prejudices and gives the players something interesting to discuss in-between their massacre of goblins.
Would you allow monster ancestries in your game? How would you handle the social and mechanical challenges they present?

Source: Why Aren’t There Evil Monster Ancestries in CresthavenRPG? (And Why You Might Allow Them Anyway)
Of course. Batman was just another caped weirdo until the Joker showed up. Then readers were wondering WTF was going on in Gotham City. Captain America vs. the Nazis. Holmes vs. Moriarty. The X-Men vs. Racism. There's no better way to explore true heroism than to expose it to true evil. It's when the PCs meet and overcome that evil that they shine not only in the NPCs' eyes but in the eyes of the players most importantly. If you haven't run Paizo's Wrath of the Righteous AP I recommend it: it really reveals how the battle between good and evil can be great rpg storytelling.

Dopplegangers and demons and undead will ALWAYS be naughty word evil. Amen.
 

Except I am not.
Nothing what you write after this convinces me this is true.

Except within the space of a fiction, if the author within that fiction asserts the objective truth of morality or ethics, then it really is. If the story is an Aesop, as many of them are, then the author is also asserting that what he describes in the fictional realm has a correspondence in the real one. You don't have to believe that is true, and that's fine, and you don't have to agree in part or in whole with any author's claim, but that's a wholly different claim than you claiming that objective morality leads to a boring story.

The claim that there exists an objective morality does not require everyone to believe that it exists. Lots of things that are true (or probably true) don't have universal agreement. Many authors write explicitly for the purpose of swaying the reader to believe that the morality they advance in the story is an objective one. You don't have to be so swayed, but that's not the same as saying that a story coming from a place of objective morality tends to be a boring one.

Indeed, it's quite possible to take the tact that the reason the overwhelming majority of popular fiction down the centuries advances some sort of objective morality or the other is that people typically enjoy that more than the moral ambiguity of daily life. Maybe that's right and maybe it isn't, but that such a philosophy has been advanced by many people suggests that your take that stories coming from a place of objective morality or which incorporate an objective morality in the setting (whether it's Harry Potter or The Wizard of Oz or whatever it is) are boring is a radical opinion shared by few.
A person thinking their morals are pretty decent (and don't we all?) and those morals influencing their creative work is not "objective morals."

Except that it doesn't do so. Not anywhere. No where does it say that being Chaotic Neutral is objectively wrong.
It is not good! A chaotic neutral person thinking that they're good is objectively wrong.
 

Celebrim

Legend
A person thinking their morals are pretty decent (and don't we all?) and those morals influencing their creative work is not "objective morals."

Are you trying to tell me that you think Victor Hugo, Charles Dickens, George MacDonald, Leo Tolstoy, CS Lewis, and JRR Tolkien were thinking a) "These are my morals" and b) "My morals are pretty decent" and not c) "The morals I am subjected to are objective truth and you should recognize this too"?

And that's just the obvious ones. I'm pretty sure that this is true of someone like say Mary Robinette Kowal as well.

It is not good! A chaotic neutral person thinking that they're good is objectively wrong.

So? A chaotic neutral person doesn't think that they are "Good"; they think that they are right. There is a difference and I think the difference is obvious. Chaotic neutrals in the setting aren't merely people trying to be Good but failing at it. They literally believe "Good" is wrong, and they can explain to you why they think Good is wrong. They are people with their own take on what it means to be correct and virtuous, and in their eyes the people who are Lawful Good are morally flawed and wrong.
 
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Are you trying to tell me that you think Victor Hugo, Charles Dickens, George MacDonald, Leo Tolstoy, CS Lewis, and JRR Tolkien were thinking a) "These are my morals" and b) "My morals are pretty decent" and not c) "The morals I am subjected to are objective truth and you should recognize this too"?
Objective morals implies something metaphysical. Such might exist in Middle-Earth in the mind of Ilúvatar, but even the Valar do not know it. Tolkien's morals are pretty clear, yet even he often writes about morally grey people and about good people struggling with moral choices without obvious correct answer. And I think Tolkien's morally grey characters are some of his most compelling ones. Boromir, Túrin Turambar, and my personal favourite Fëanor.

You also said something earlier about objective morals being able to exist even if they were not known. It think that is meaningless. If we do not know them, they do not affect us. But what makes alignment system weird is that it indeed is completely knowable. Certainly to the players and at least in older editions to the people in the setting too. This is something that is extremely rare in any other fiction, if we do not count actual religious texts. And I don't think this sort of moral transparency is a good thing at all. It destroys ambiguity and ethical nuance. Even I stories with somewhat black and white morality, the shades are never this uncomfortably stark.

So? A chaotic neutral person doesn't think that they are "Good"; they think that they are right. There is a difference and I think the difference is obvious. Chaotic neutrals in the setting aren't merely people trying to be Good but failing at it. They literally believe "Good" is wrong, and they can explain to you why they think Good is wrong. They are people with their own take one what it means to be correct and virtuous, and in their eyes the people who are Lawful Good are morally flawed and wrong.
That is absurd. Words mean things. People rarely believe that they're not good (sometimes people accept that they have failed to reach their own moral standards, but they strive to reach them.) And thinking that "good is wrong" is really not something people tend to do. Also, in normal speech "correct and virtuous" is synonymous with "good" and morally flawed and wrong are synonymous with not being good, so the things you write really do not make any sense. But thanks for demonstrating what incoherent mess the alignment system is, I guess. 🤷
 

Celebrim

Legend
Objective morals implies something metaphysical.

Maybe. I know atheist materialists who insist on objective morality using "science" as the higher authority which imposes on the individual obligations.

Such might exist in Middle-Earth in the mind of Ilúvatar, but even the Valar do not know it.

Whether not Valar know it are not doesn't matter, in Middle-Earth there is objective truth as revealed through Illuvatar - Tolkien's continually reflected metaphor of light. This isn't a world of subjective morality no matter how hard you try to spin and dig out of it.

Tolkien's morals are pretty clear..

Let's be clear and accurate here. Tolkien is a fanatically pious Catholic on the scale of someone like Isaac Newton. This is a guy who broke off a friendship with his best friend because his friend married a divorced woman, a sin he found too painful and overt to bear with. Tolkien absolutely believes in objective morality of the most concrete sort. This is a guy whose own standards for himself were incredibly high and his expectations for the behavior of others were equally high. But this is certainly not a guy who thinks he is his own moral authority or that he gets to decide what is right or wrong.

yet even he often writes about morally grey people and about good people struggling with moral choices without obvious correct answer.

Look 'The Bible' itself writes about all sorts of morally grey individuals from Abraham and David to Peter and Paul. That Tolkien would think it entirely appropriate to have stories of morally conflicted and compromised characters in no fashion means that he isn't advancing an objective morality and coming from a place of objective morality. Do you honestly think that people who believe in objective reality don't deal with the messy reality of people in the real world? Really? Nothing about believing in objective morality means that you can't have morally complex individuals making hard and difficult choices.

You also said something earlier about objective morals being able to exist even if they were not known. It think that is meaningless.

Of course you do. But again, you have come hard on the Chaotic Neutral spectrum where morality is all about your internal subjective reality and decisions. But what makes objective morality objective by definition is that it applies to you whether you know it or not.

But what makes alignment system weird is that it indeed is completely knowable.

This isn't weird. This is pretty darn normal. In most fiction the author expects the reader to share with him knowledge of what is right and wrong based on conventional understandings of what is moral. In most fiction, the correct course is action is presumed to be known by both the reader and the character, and the difficulty is that the reader is supposed to understand that doing the right thing is much harder than knowing the right thing to do. In fact, the author generally assumes that the reader has had the experience of knowing the right thing to do and then talking themselves out of doing it and doing the very things that they believe to be wrong. The reader is supposed to understand that moral high callings are difficult and require great willpower and sacrifice and courage and hope and faith and other virtues, and that failure to reach those high marks is a normal part of life - which is why we celebrate heroic moments. It's not because we think knowing the right thing to do is hard. It's because we know that having conviction and belief in that moment is hard. That's the experience conveyed by most heroic fiction, and not that the truth is ineffable or uncommunicated.

This is something that is extremely rare in any other fiction, if we do not count actual religious texts.

No, it isn't. Because for one thing a great deal of fiction is inspired by one sort religious text or another. Much of Western Fantasy is either directly inspired by a religious text or a response to it.

And I don't think this sort of moral transparency is a good thing at all. It destroys ambiguity and ethical nuance. Even I stories with somewhat black and white morality, the shades are never this uncomfortably stark.

This is an opinion. I don't think it's a surprising one for you to have, but there it is. Those are your words.

That is absurd. Words mean things.

Absolutely I agree, though that's a pretty darn strange thing for a moral relativist to believe.

People rarely believe that they're not good (sometimes people accept that they have failed to reach their own moral standards, but they strive to reach them.)

I believe that I'm not good. In the circles that I frequent believing that you are not good is normal. But I think what you mean is actually that people rarely believe that the things that they believe are not good. And that is a little rarer, but it's not very rare.

What I've been writing about is a fictional reality. You refuse to accept the fictional reality because it doesn't conform to your moral beliefs in much the same way that many Christians would reject it for its occult influences, magic, and paganism, but the things I've been talking about have strong parallels in the real world.

In the setting "Good" is defined conventionally by things like mercy, compassion, and charity. The reasons for nomenclature are obvious. Those sorts of things are good across a wide variety of moral systems including the most prevalent Western ones. Those are things that most people expect to be good without questioning. Yet in the real world many people can and do argue that traditional virtues like mercy, compassion and charity are in fact wrong. We can make arguments against all three of them and point out real world examples of cultures and religions and philosophies that concur with this judgment against "Good". For example, Objectivists believe things like self-sacrifice and altruism are moral wrongs. Now if we are going to talk about that in a useful way we need to distinguish between the virtue system that upholds mercy, compassion and charity from the ones that don't. D&D in the great wheel cosmology does that. So, yes we have plenty of examples of people thinking that "good is wrong". That "good is wrong" or could be is not a hard concept, regardless of how you think people tend to talk. It's no more confusing to someone at first than a statement like "compassion and charity are evil", but that later statement would certainly be more confusing in the context of the alignment system.

And in any event, this is the thing that is actually written into D&D from the start. Evil people believe for reasons that I could explain that Woe is better than Weal, and that for them Evil is their good. And Chaotic people likewise believe that correct and right action is not Good, but Chaos. A Chaotic Evil person in D&D doesn't believe that they will be punished by their actions because they broke objective moral tenants. They believe they are following in the example of right-minded paragons who will eventually prove their rightness by triumphing over the false and weak beliefs of Good.

It's baffling to me that you'd look at that system and claim "It destroys ambiguity...black and white morality...uncomfortably stark". That's such a bizarre take on the system, which in fact as I noted is actually in the standard cosmology massively ambiguous and gray with no answers for you just options. Is it better to go to the Nine Hells or Olympia? Well, that's depends entirely on your point of view.
 
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GrimCo

Adventurer
We ditched alignment when 5e came out. And before that, i spent numerous hours in philosophical objective vs subjective morality debates. It get's boring super fast.

These days, i tend to go with "One man's terrorist is other man's freedom fighter" approach. It's more about motivations, goals and actions of NPCs and factions vs motivations, goals and actions of PCs. "Good" guys are ones that have their motivations and goals aligned with PCs.

So, no, i personally don't ban monster races from games. PC are heroes of their own story. In setting, they are heroes for some, but villains for others. In our latest game, every one looks human. You can have racial stats from any playable race. It's just combination of cultural heritage, upbringing and genetic expression mixed with magical vestment.
 

pemerton

Legend
The fact remains that people do not agree what alignment means, especially law and chaos, thus it remains as a poor tool for communicating things.
I've seen samurai statted up as Lawful, because they are self-disciplined, and as Chaotic, because they act individualistically in battle rather than as a phalanx.

The American revolutionaries believed that the best way to secure individual liberty was via a framework of law (including the Bill of Rights). Should this sentiment be seen as Chaotic, or as Lawful?

Gygax sidesteps some of these issues by positing a fantasy world with mediaeval lands (feudal collectives with little liberalism of the American sort) and ornery but ultimately decent loners (the CG rangers and Beorn types). His fantasy world simply does not include rule-of-law advocates of individual liberty. But it does include samurai, and so the issue still arises even in the fantasy.

You seem to be confused about what objective morals mean. An author having a point of view is not that. Furthermore, even if one would think that this is what it means, in RPGs we do not have a sole author. It is group activity so it is counterproductive for the GM to shove their morals to the players via the game's objective morality.


Except that the game says that they're objectively wrong!

<snip>

I am not trying to push any specific moral perspective, beyond not having the game to dictate the morals for the players. This by no means means that characters need or should be amoral.
Have you been reading Dogs in the Vineyard on the sly?
 

Of course you do. But again, you have come hard on the Chaotic Neutral spectrum where morality is all about your internal subjective reality and decisions. But what makes objective morality objective by definition is that it applies to you whether you know it or not.
That is meaningless. There indeed might be objective morals in real world which say that eating bananas is the most evil thing one can do, but as literally no one would know this, it would not affect how the world functions one bit.

This is an opinion. I don't think it's a surprising one for you to have, but there it is. Those are your words.
I think it is a fact that it is extremely rare for fiction to have such stark categories like alignment, and it is also a fact that things like detecting morality unless it is in form of some supernatural force is rarely a thing. We are not talking about writer having clear morals and those being reflected how they present things in their work, we are talking about childish labelling of people into good and evil categories and this being detectable to the people in the setting. Was Boromir a good man? How about Magneto? With alignment these questions have objective correct answers. I don't think that is necessary, nor does it improve our appreciation or understanding of these things; quite the opposite.

Absolutely I agree, though that's a pretty darn strange thing for a moral relativist to believe.
I don't think usability of language is an ethical issue. I also don't believe I have said I am moral relativist as that is not relevant; I have talked about what is desirable in a RPG.

I believe that I'm not good. In the circles that I frequent believing that you are not good is normal. But I think what you mean is actually that people rarely believe that the things that they believe are not good. And that is a little rarer, but it's not very rare.

What I've been writing about is a fictional reality. You refuse to accept the fictional reality because it doesn't conform to your moral beliefs in much the same way that many Christians would reject it for its occult influences, magic, and paganism, but the things I've been talking about have strong parallels in the real world.

In the setting "Good" is defined conventionally by things like mercy, compassion, and charity. The reasons for nomenclature are obvious. Those sorts of things are good across a wide variety of moral systems including the most prevalent Western ones. Those are things that most people expect to be good without questioning. Yet in the real world many people can and do argue that traditional virtues like mercy, compassion and charity are in fact wrong. We can make arguments against all three of them and point out real world examples of cultures and religions and philosophies that concur with this judgment against "Good". For example, Objectivists believe things like self-sacrifice and altruism are moral wrongs. Now if we are going to talk about that in a useful way we need to distinguish between the virtue system that upholds mercy, compassion and charity from the ones that don't. D&D in the great wheel cosmology does that. So, yes we have plenty of examples of people thinking that "good is wrong". That "good is wrong" or could be is not a hard concept, regardless of how you think people tend to talk. It's no more confusing to someone at first than a statement like "compassion and charity are evil", but that later statement would certainly be more confusing in the context of the alignment system.

And in any event, this is the thing that is actually written into D&D from the start. Evil people believe for reasons that I could explain that Woe is better than Weal, and that for them Evil is their good. And Chaotic people likewise believe that correct and right action is not Good, but Chaos. A Chaotic Evil person in D&D doesn't believe that they will be punished by their actions because they broke objective moral tenants. They believe they are following in the example of right-minded paragons who will eventually prove their rightness by triumphing over the false and weak beliefs of Good.

It's baffling to me that you'd look at that system and claim "It destroys ambiguity...black and white morality...uncomfortably stark". That's such a bizarre take on the system, which in fact as I noted is actually in the standard cosmology massively ambiguous and gray with no answers for you just options. Is it better to go to the Nine Hells or Olympia? Well, that's depends entirely on your point of view.

Mate. Things are literally labelled good and evil. You are now contorting into some weird, but "good is not good." This is just a mess.

Furthermore, Gygax believed that it was lawful good to murder enemy non-combatants, so I'm not sure D&D good has much to do with mercy.
 

I've seen samurai statted up as Lawful, because they are self-disciplined, and as Chaotic, because they act individualistically in battle rather than as a phalanx.

The American revolutionaries believed that the best way to secure individual liberty was via a framework of law (including the Bill of Rights). Should this sentiment be seen as Chaotic, or as Lawful?

Gygax sidesteps some of these issues by positing a fantasy world with mediaeval lands (feudal collectives with little liberalism of the American sort) and ornery but ultimately decent loners (the CG rangers and Beorn types). His fantasy world simply does not include rule-of-law advocates of individual liberty. But it does include samurai, and so the issue still arises even in the fantasy.
Yeah. People never agree on these things. And even if they somehow miraculously would, there is still the issue that real people and societies are complex. They tend to contain both traits that we might think as lawful and traits that we think are chaotic. Stark categorisations just do not work. Like I said earlier, it is just more informative to say that a person is impulsive and honourable than try to decide whether they're chaotic due their impulsiveness, lawful due their honour, or perhaps that these cancel each other out and they're neutral.

Have you been reading Dogs in the Vineyard on the sly?
I did read it a while ago, but I have hold these opinions for a long time.
 

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