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Excalibur d20

Vigilance

Explorer
Hi Chuck, Chuck here lol.

The Robber Baron is definitely not a frontline fighter, he's a dirty fighter :)

He gets sneak attack, but not as much as a thief, and some nice fighting abilities, but not as much as a fighter, yeoman, or knight.

So he's closer to a rogue than anything else. That's why the book says robber barons won't fight with a knight, because in a straight up fight he would lose. If he could surprise him, or if 2 robber barons could flank him, that's a different story.

I think the Robber Baron is a good class, balanced, because he gets some sneak attack, some bonus feats, and some limited knight abilities (most notably mounted combat bonuses). However, some others have felt he was a little weak, so any thoughts on that are cool.

On the Minstrel, his caster level and spell progression are three levels lower than the druid.

Thanks for the interest and the questions. :)

Chuck
 

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FoxWander

Adventurer
For comparison sake, my wife and I broke down some similar classes (Fighter, Knight, Robber Baron and Yeoman) and it seems like the Robber Baron might be a bit weak for the role it's written for.
Knights Handbook for Robber Baron said:
Robber barons are knights with no adherence to the code of chivalry.
Here's what we found- comparing their hit die, skills, skill points, weapon and armor proficiencies, saves and class abilities the four classes are very similar except in BAB, saves, and class abilities.

As a base, the fighter gets 11 bonus feats as his class abilities and he has good Fort saves. The Knight has 12 class abilities (you could call them virtual feats), 3 of which get better as he levels, and good Fort saves (not to mention a d12 hit die). So you could say it's 12+++ class abilities. That's more than the fighter but with his focus on mounted combat, and his Code of Chivalry, he's a little less flexible so it seems balanced overall.

The Robber Baron and Yeoman are very similar- they both have d8 hit die, comparable skills, skill points, weapons, armor and even two good saves. But the Robber Baron has medium BAB and 9++ class abilities (though admittedly one of those +'s is Sneak Attack which can be pretty potent, but the other is Mounted Combat which seems to re-emphasize his focus on combat)) and the Yeoman has high BAB and 12+ class abilities. Though you should count Archery twice (and as an extra +) because it applies to all bows and crossbows.

So unless you're counting Sneak Attack as equal to 4 class abilities we think the Robber Baron is a bit weak for his role as an un-chivlarous knight. As you say he is a "dirty fighter" but he's still a fighter. We feel he might work better if you dropped him back to one good save and upped his BAB. You could even slow down his Sneak Attack progression if you think it's that powerful, but in that case you might also want to give him a bigger list of Bonus Feats to choose from. (you might want to do that anyway)

On another note, looking at the balance of all the classes, the Minstrel seems like a very powerful class. Gaining Wild Shape in addition to the other Druidic abilities and Bardic abilities might overshadow anyone playing a straight Bard or Druid. Taking into account the Changeling PrC, that gives you three classes with Wild Shape. Might be a lot of stepping on toes.

Please don't take this as just a bitch-fest, we really think you have something with this setting and we look forward to playing it.

-Chuck and Michelle
 
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Andrew D. Gable

First Post
I checked it out too, one of my exes infected me with a bit of an Arthurian obsession. Looks quite good! May find use for it, maybe do something with an alternate Arthurian idea I have...
 

Vigilance

Explorer
FoxWander said:
Please don't take this as just a bitch-fest, we really think you have something with this setting and we look forward to playing it.

-Chuck and Michelle

Hi there :)

I'm pretty hard to offend, and I definitely did not feel like you were whining.

Let me start off with a little full disclosure. The robber baron was beefed up *twice* during the playtest process because it was consistently rated as the weakest class in the book by my players.

That said, let me throw my .02 in on the balance of the various classes.

I think you're comparing the Robber Baron to the wrong class. Comparing him to any of the fighters, and rating him on the basis of his fighting ability only, he comes up pale.

However, let's compare him to the rogue, which is his real analogue (at least in my opinion).

BAB is a wash.

Skills- rogue wins. More skill points. More skills.

Armor and Weapons is in favor of the Robber Baron.

Saves is in favor of the robber baron, good fort and dex, as opposed to good fort.

HD- Robber baron wins again. 1d8 instead of 1d6.

Class abilities:

Rogue gets- sneak attack +10d6, evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and four special abilities.

Robber Baron gets sneak attack +6d6, 6 bonus feats (from a much smaller list than the fighter), and mounted combat abilities (a special knight's warhorse and eventually +4 to hit when mounted). One of the bonus feats he gets, however, the first one, is Improved Feint. This is key, because he does *not* have to sneak up on you or get off his horse to sneak attack you.

I consider that an edge to the rogue. So, if you rate each of the above categories as being worth one point each. The robber baron comes out ahead at +1.

He is not as good in a straight up fight as a knight or yeoman. He is better in a straight up fight than a rogue, however.

So that's my .02 :)

About the other classes, Minstrel is powerful, but nowhere near as powerful as an *actual* druid (which, in one designer's opinion, is the single most powerful class in the PHB). He (more or less) trades off the ability to shapechange into an elemental for the ability to use bardic music. His spell progression is a bit of a concern in the playtest group, and he might get toned down there.

Yeoman is consistently rated as (by a small margin over the knight) the most powerful class in the book. That's something I'm taking a hard look at as well.

However, I feel like the knight and the yeoman are just powerful within their niche. Each is less versatile than a fighter, since each can be put in a situation where he doesn't perform well.

One more point, the Yeoman got a slight edge up in power, because the game lost its traditional artillery piece, the mage.

However, you haven't said anything I haven't heard before, so I will take another hard look at some things.

Thanks again for the interest and the comments. :)

Chuck
 

FoxWander

Adventurer
Well, I can see your point how you prefer to compare the Robber Baron to the Rogue. I compared him to the Knight (and Yeoman, the other "combat" class) instead because the descriptive text, before the game rule information, portrays him as basically a not-so-honorable, fallen Knight. He's given up his "mobile tank" niche to be the "dirty fighter". Since he has heavy armor, Mounted Combat bonuses and a Knight's Warhorse this seemed to further reinforce a comparison with the Knight instead of a rogue.

The Robber Baron is probably a solid class excactly as written but the flavor text/description seems to paint him as more combat oriented. An un-chivalrous knight with some dishonorable dirty tricks up his sleeve, but then he doesn't have the BAB to back up that impression. With a high BAB, and maybe lower Sneak Attack damage, he's still not going to hold his own in a straight up fight with a Knight just based on the Hit Die difference. (This is assuming he could even fight at all after being impaled by the Knight's lance! :D ) And he'll probably be dead from ranged attacks before he could get near a Yeoman for a straight up fight. Of course, this is why the Robber Baron doesn't do the "straight up" fight thing at all- thus, Improved Feint and Sneak Attack! Anyway, that's the way I saw it after my initial read through.

Of course, you could also say that if the Robber Baron gets Full BAB, Sneak Attack AND Bonus Feats why would anybody play a Fighter? (Other than the fact that "Fighter" seems kind of bland compared to the flavorful classes of the setting. ;) ) Based on that balance issue, maybe the Robber Baron is fine as is after all. But the descriptive text still paints a different picture, so maybe it could be addresses that way. Either way, something seems a little off about the Robber Baron. This is all my opinion (and my wife's to a lesser degree) of course, and based on not actually playing the game yet, AND operating, at the moment, on not quite enough sleep too. So maybe I'm just not "seeing it" yet.

However, that "why would anyone play X when you could play Y" comparison still holds for the Minstrel. Not as compared to the Druid, but to the Bard. The Minstrel has everything the Bard has and Druidic powers to boot. So even though Bard is an allowable class in the setting, we couldn't see why anyone would play one over a Minstrel. Which brings up the axiom "if something is SO good, no one would NOT take it = unbalanced". Of course this could be partially fixed just by cutting the Bard out completely and replacing it with the Minstrel, which fits the setting just fine. Though the Wild Shape abilities, even if they aren't as powerful as the Druid's, still steal a lot of the Druid's thunder. I think if I were playing a Druid in a party with a Minstrel I'd feel a bit out-classed by a guy who can do most of what I can, almost as good, AND has Bardic Music as well! Of course I could sic my Animal Companion on him if he annoyed me too much though. (but then there's that Soothe the Savage Beast ability to deal with. So I guess I'd have to smack him down with my higher level spells, or wait till I get an Elemental wild shape and roast him alive. :p ) And, again, this is all without playing it yet and just reading the rules, so I may be completely off base on all of this.

And I also want to reiterate the many things I like about Excalibur, just so you don't think I'm only trying to pick it apart. I'm real tempted to roll up a Fool character, cause they seem like a kick and a half to play. And hey, who else can get away with insulting the nobility! :D My wife and I have also considered playing a pair of Friar Tuck, a-la Kevin Costner's Robin Hood, Priests. We could absolve each other of our drunken brawls and such, then send each other on "Crusades" to give to the poor and enhance thier lives- thru robbing our enemies and redistributing the wealth via lavish parties and excessive "rounds for the house" at various bars, of course! Such truly pious characters we would be! :p LOL!! But seriously, you really have done a tremendous job with this. The PrC's, especially, really hit the feel of the setting. I really like the various "Color Knights". (I think whatever character I play will be aimed at the Red Knight!) So, isolated balance issues (IMHO) aside- Great work!

-Chuck

--Edit: Speaking of the Fool. Have you considered how appropriate a Sneak Attack ability fits this character? Especially with Improved Feint at 1st level! You might qualify the Sneak Attack damage as non-lethal only though since a knife in the back really doesn't fit, but some kind of "3 stooges" distraction manuever followed up by a lead shot filled fake chicken to the side of the head does! It could be balanced by slowing the progression of the Wit and Verbal "attack" abilities at later levels, cutting off the highest level ones since they get a little repetitive. It's a modification to the class I know I'd make if I were running an Excalibur game. Of all your classes, The Fool seems most fitting for sneak attacks, especially with a non-lethal qualifier. Think about it. ;)
 
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Vigilance

Explorer
Well- I think the issue with the flavor text might be fixating on one point made early, and giving it weight over a point made later, when both are meant to have equal weight.

The text does indeed call the robber baron a "knight with no adherence to the code of chivalry".

However it also calls him "a fair combatant not nearly as good in a 'fair' fight as a knight or fighter" and later still a "cross between a rogue and a knight".

Still, I do somewhat agree with your point. I'm pondering it :)

On the question of why play a bard when you could play a minstrel... I wonder why anyone would play a bard. Period. The class just never appealed to me, and I think that's one reason you have *three* new classes to fill its place.

I allowed simply because it fits the genre, and its not broken. However, I've never seen one played, and I frequently game inhouse at a FLGS where I see a ton of games going on other than my own, and I have seen one (ever) being played.

And I dont think the class is too weak in 3.5, it just lacks a little color. A little too jack of all trades master of none.

For me anyway :)

Chuck
 

Vigilance

Explorer
On the point of the spectral knights... everyone seems to like them better lol.

Who knew. :)

I almost didnt include them. They were the last classes added to the game before playtesting started, and I wasn't sure they were going in at all until the very last minute.

Chuck
 

PosterBoy

First Post
Just a note here.

We should have the first update to LOE by Monday. Besides the various typos and mechanic tweaks, there will be 2 new classes and 10+ new spells.

-Chris
 

Vigilance

Explorer
I believe the update is out now, for those who already have the game, you can download the update for free.

It adds two new PrCs (Court Mage and Alchemist), as well as new spells and some new magic-oriented feats.

I am also about 80% (or more) done with the Campaign Guide.

Chuck
 

FoxWander

Adventurer
Another thought on the Fool

Ok, scratch what I mentioned earlier about Sneak Attacks for the Fool. Like I said, it was late- that kind of thing really doesn't fit the class. A level of Rogue would accomplish the same thing AND make more sense. But (and I'm wide awake now) one thing the class really does need is a way to run away faster! Seriously, with all their abilities to make people attack them a 10' speed boost as one of their first abilities would be a real life saver. Besides, you mention them being "light of foot" and counting on "the speed of their feet to get them away from those with no sense of humor." Have you considered an actual ability to do just that?

And just out of curiousity, why an ability that gives a Haste spell affect, but nothing for Hideous Laughter?
 

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