Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Ciaran]

Dr. Strangemonkey makes lots of very good points about early civilizations that I’d like to see applied in this thread. Go Dr. S!

In reference to the discussion of army size, I should note that, beyond a certain point, army size ceases to have a significant impact on the outcome of a battle. Additional troops allow you to outflank and encircle the opponent, and give you additional reserves to throw into the fray when your front line troops start to tire or buckle; but the determining factor in any battle is morale. The vast majority of all battlefield deaths only occur after the troops start to rout, allowing their opponents to cut them down as they run. And once the first soldier in a unit loses his nerve and flees, the result tends to be infectious; who wants to be the last one standing against the enemy?

This is why leadership and training are so important. A numerically smaller force can easily trounce a far larger army, even with slight technological (or magical!) inferiority, if they can hold the line until the enemy’s morale breaks. Magically, this should lead to an interesting sequence of developments based on morale and enchantment, starting with spells like bless and remove fear. The ultimate result of this path would be spells that remove all fear or sense of self-preservation from one’s entire army, causing one’s troops to fight to the last man.

- Eric

 

[Ciaran]

(double post)

 

[Tonguez]

Okay another useful Link Late Bronze Age Warefare


and importantly for us a System of rating Tactics and various 'Weapon Systems (ie Units)

Thus

Firepower (rate of fire and destructive power of fire).

Effective range (range at which firepower is destructive, as well as diminution of destructive power as range increases or decreases).

Mobility (relative ability to gain a positional advantage over opponents based on speed of movement).

Vulnerability (relative susceptibility to counter-fire and relative damage inflicted by hits from counter-fire).

Utility (ability to function well given variations in weather and terrain).

eg it rates Archer Infantry (simple bows) thus

Firepower = High. Maximum rate of 12 missiles per minute (arrows) with ability to penetrate all but heavy leather and bronze armour, and shields.

Effective range = Medium. 60 to 100 yards against “soft” targets and around 30 to 40 yards against “harder” targets.

Mobility = Low.

Vulnerability = High. Unable to carry shields while firing arrows.

Utility = High.

I might just go back and do a rating on the Units we've already covered (in the Cressian-Hill people and Cressian-Jonga conflicts)

oh and consider this a BUMP

 

[ajanders]

What the Cresian Army Looks Like

Unless the Cresians have become a warlike people, likely they've followed the tradition of most countries not threatened for generations and reduced the size of their army.
Likely their standing force consists of the shapechanging warriors enhanced with buffing spells that came from the Jongan culture: a combination likely to be devastatingly effective in small-scale combat.
Think about: try a group of, say, first level ranger werewolves backed up with bull's strength, barkskin, and a commander 1/1 ranger/bard to inspire courage. Four of them could drive most mundane foes off in three or four rounds, and only the fast ones would be able to evade them. Combine bestial senses with ranger tracking and nothing could escape them unless it could fly.

When and if they try to raise a militia again, it'll likely be a little harder than it was, as hunting is no longer an integral part of their society.
On the plus side, they've likely developed magical enhancements to agriculture and animal husbandry: the militia may not be skilled, but they'll likely be warmly dressed in wool from their friendly Dire Sheep and well fed on Plant Growth fertilized fruits, veggies, and grains. (That may be why people go to war against them, in fact: jealousy at their high standard of living.)

As they have a close connection with nature, I am of two minds about the development of cavalry. They will either regard animals as creatures not to be casually abused by being thrown into war or as creatures to be allied with.
Essentially, expect either no cavalry or elite priestly cavalry riding really exotic and nasty animals and beasts...like pegasi, or luposphinxes. Or awakened animals like stags or boars.
I'm frankly inclined to suggest the latter option myself: some people like Rose Priests, I like Stag Knights. There's no scientific reason: I just think it would look really cool.

But if you want another culture to conflict with, may I suggest we take a page from ancient history? I vote for a culture based on psionics where the humans are ruled by the psionic gemstone dragons out of the MMII...complete with giant psionic monoliths to store psychic power.
Working out how those two duke it out should be interesting indeed.

 

[Zephyrus]

something brought up before and bares rementioning expecially in light of the comment just made about Cressian Calvery.

the presence of humanoids, beasts/magical beasts and other monsterous creatures. I think one nation (perhase a bit cliche) should be a dominantly of another race more than just ruled by another race like the suggested psionic dragons. On the down side most of the psionic dragons are anti-social or agressively territorial (according to their descriptions) or they are tolerant or even friendly but non-involvists/observers/sage-like. Also such a nation might be perhaps too.. powerful unless it was a sole dragon of only Adult to Mature Age. at least enough peopel might have enough power to take it down if threatened.

I think the cressians should have at least one allied nation of the other three. perhaps the other acting as isolationists (the psionics) and the monsterous race-nation agressive. on the other side of things maybe flip flop that. the monsterous race-nation are isolationists and the psionics are the agressives. perhaps using their psionic abilities to create legions of non-psionic slaves or puppets to their powers (or maybe these psi's are githyani and are monsterous race but its a bit cliche to have the monster race always the badie).

I imagine Cressian's developing massive very open cities. a small city could cover as much ground as a typical metropolis. That the cressisans would concentrate on these few large area covering cities perhaps even after a long enough time becoming united city states (depending on the politics of their evolution). the cities having hundreads of farmlettes and almost seeming like the city itself is composed of dozens and dozens of towns that share borders. The city acting as both farm and wildlife preserve with a few small urbanized clusters. again roads are lined with briars and the the cities are lined with concentric rings/layers of thick briars. Crossroads and in populated area's these will be roses isntead of simple thorny thickets to appease the populance as far as apperances. the premis being that at the heart of the city being the most dense but very open construction by others standards and provide a means to slow any possible enemy so that they can be harrassed and taken appart on the Cressians terms. the openness of the cities serving both a tactical advantage as a social and moral advantage. the cressians feel safe in their cities and by making these cities cover vast area's with all their farmland and such occuring within and with their resources not limited to being on the outskirts of t heir villages but rather the 'city' encomapasing everything a greater national and natural togetherness forms.

I would think that thanks to the druids and following the jongan wars they would develop a clear if not almost modernized lumber plan organized forestry where they grew lumber for the express purpose of construction etc while leaving natural forests alone. farmletts being tended to periodically by druids to produce prolly an extra crop each year without overwealming the soil. Homes being made of natural materials like wood or clay brick and alowed to grow over with ivy or vines.

getting back to what I started saying about the animals and such I think the cressians would have considerable alliance with nature and its animals. awakens animals as well as befriended and trained animals applenty. I suspect they would gather animals and use them widly in even day to day chores, working closely with them. creating habbitats and such for these animals to thrive and be comfortable expecially with the agressive and preditory species so they were out of the way of the people but could still roam free much of the time. I can easily see wolf packs lead by awakened wolf alpha pairs having hteir wolf packs roam the boarders. I imagine quite possible the cressian's developing a close connection with horses as a means of transportion. with such open cities transportation of goods and supplies would become tricky. Horses are suffiently docile yet fast and strong enough to fill a need for a very versitle beast of burden. I think it would be awsome if possible in the approaching conflict for the Cressians to develop Centaurs! I think a neat or nice aspect of the Cressians will be the graces of a monsterous race now and then in responce to need or circumstances. I even wonder if perhaps the Cressians develop the other lycanthrope types as their culture grows Or if perhaps that is what sparks another conflict other lycanthrope types. With Druids and wild-shape as well as Werewolves the cultural evolution into monsterous creatures is quite possile be them the other shapeshifter types or more fixed transitions like hybrid races such as Centaurs and Wemic's this could be a reason for the city-states... or perhaps these creature occured naturally and the Cressians welcomed and intigrated them into their societies.

 

[Ciaran]

I vote that we leave psionics out of the Fantasy Arms Race; they aren't in the core rules, we have enough to talk about that is in the core rules, and I personally don't care for them. But I'll leave that up to RangerWickett to decide.

We should probably discern what effects the Jongan war has had on Cresian society and government. At the very least, the beastmen probably hold a higher position than before. There’s also the question of whether other gods are worshipped in Cresia, given that they’ve conquered and absorbed populations that worshipped other deities. I’d say that we’ll see a pantheon developing, with the other gods being named the children of the Dog-Mother and Field-Father.

Ajanders is correct that the Cresians would probably reduce their standing army after a long peace, though the beastmen are likely to remain in force, and may well have had an impact on the leadership of Cresia. I expect that the They would also be unlikely to have a broad range of new military breakthroughs; they haven't had much in the way of war since the Jongan conflict, and for the most part, they are both traditionalist and peaceful in nature. What new advances they've picked up have probably come from other cultures that they've absorbed over the years, and from what they've seen used by other cultures. Given their range, I expect that the Cresians are a major trading power of the late Bronze / early Iron Age. I'd include the following tricks in the Cresian bag:

1) Cavalry. The Cresian affinity for animals makes this the most favored military development, though they are unlikely to develop the technologies required for heavy cavalry (stirrups and so forth). Given their druidic talents, even if the Cresians don't come up with this themselves, once they see cavalry used by another culture, they can easily develop a gentling regimen based on animal friendship and the like.

2) Chariots. While they aren't all that advantageous in and of themselves, chariots may prove to make excellent traveling platforms for Cresian spellcasters. Of course, this requires the development of the wheel, which may be a bit beyond them at the moment...

3) Unit formations and co-ordination. They will have picked up a few tricks from the Jongans in this regard, which will serve them in good stead when dealing with technologically superior opponents.

4) Shipboard rams. After having whales and the like knock holes in enemy ships, it won’t be long before a bright Cresian (probably of Jongan ancestry) sticks a metal whale-head on a ship’s prow and takes a shot at ramming an enemy vessel.

Now, here are some things that other nations may have, and that they Cresians probably don't have yet:

1) Bows. Archery is going to have a major impact on the early fantasy battlefield, one that shouldn't be underestimated. With little armor available as yet, arrowstorms can slaughter troops relatively easily under the right conditions; and the Cresians' beastmen and animal allies have no real defense at all.

2) Shield walls. The Jongans used a primitive version of this, but they never got the opportunity to develop it properly, and the Cresians never thought to develop it themselves. Given the threat of archery, though, they'd better catch on quickly...

3) Phalanxes. From the Greek phalanx to the Swiss hedgehog, arrays of polearms have proven to be incredibly effective against less organized opposition. The Cresian troops have at least a modicum of discipline (picked up from the Jongans), but that may not be enough to get through a phalanx; and horses are shy of rows of spearpoints, being wiser in this respect than their riders.

And some magical developments that other nations are likely to use:

1) Illusions. Even the simplest of illusions can have a drastic effect on the battlefield. Even a silent image can be used to disguise a spiked pit or to conceal an ambuscade; either tactic can eliminate a dozen or more opponents with a single spell, while change self or invisibility allows a spy or assassin to penetrate Cresian lines with ease. The illusionist culture really doesn’t need anything else to hold its own against the Cresians.

2) Scrying. Once spells like detect thoughts, clairvoyance and scry come along, no secret is safe from the enemy; and as military forces have reached the point of clear chains of command, all you have to do is insinuate a scrying sensor into the enemy general’s tent in order to lay bare the strategy of the entire enemy force.

3) Clerical battlefield magics. Clerics have a number of low-level spells that are broadly useful in combat. The most notable are bless and bane, which can affect large numbers of troops and have a strong effect on morale. Obscuring mist and darkness can alter a battlefield, while spells like divine favor, shield of faith and magic weapon allow a warrior priest to smite enemies of the faith as well as any warrior. I expect that, at some point, an expansionistic theocracy will arise that will make good use of these low-level clerical magics on the battlefield.

4) Created monsters. Unlike Zephyrus, I don't see the Cresians as the sort of folk to create hybrids like centaurs; that would be too much a violation of the existing natural order. But another, less scrupulous culture might use magic to create new species to serve their needs. Minotaurs in particular would make good servants: they're strong, they're enduring, and they eat grass! And for combat, they might develop warrior-creatures with lots of natural armor (lizardfolk?), which would have a strong impact on the battlefield in an era where the shield is the best armor that's generally available.

Any thoughts?

- Eric

(Edit: added reference to created monsters.)

 

[Roman]

Good info Tonguez and a really interesting thread to read.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I would think that the Cressians are likely to develop cavalry or chariots, or at least perfect them, before anyone else does.

Personally, I vote for including Chariots somewhere if not everywhere. Afterall, cavalry takes a while to get off the ground.

A.) They're cool

B.) if you're the Cressians you can chain all sorts of neat things to them.

C.) you put a wizard on them and protect the wizard.

I want to possit some guesses on how Cressian society develops in between the Jongan Assimilation and the current scenario.

First of all, since the Druids ended up on top of Cressian soceity, I'd like to possit that some of the long term forecasts I made earlier had some effect:

1.) Cressian society is very broad and deep rather than highly structured, diverse, and hierarchical.
The basic social unit is the village, each of which belongs to a larger group of villages. Each village in the group shares a lot of community property within itself, though most people live in family units, and social structure and arrangements within the village are fairly fluid. Government is done primarily by consensus though there are individual systems to modify this and everyone has the right to take matters to a higher, druidic, authority and must do so in cases of serious crime. Each group shares maintenance and use of certain infrastructures such as strongholds, storehouses, caravans, guild posts, large religious structures, armories, militia, and roads or canals that lead to the hub cities. The Group is the smallest formal political unit, and runs democratically off of representatives from the various villagers and the advice or authority of their local guild posts.
The guild posts are sort of my term for the larger and more formal 'guilds' of the druid, warrior, scribe, and wanderer. These organizations are all united under the church, but are made up of people with different types of training and distinct responsibilities. They recruit from the villages but basically form their own societies and are in charge of creating the larger infrastructures of the nation and keeping the village groups linked to the nation as a whole. Each guild has its own structure and rules though the druids are generally given prestige as the wisest and best connected to the higher church authority.
druid guild members are in charge of maintaining the health of the landscape and the populace, they lead most religious ceremonies, and form of the judges of church courts and advisors of democratic gatherings. The field father is their patron.
warrior guild members are in charge of maintaining the armories and training the milities. they are bailiffs and policeman in the courts and ushers for the democratic gatherings. The war dog is their patron.
scribe guild members are in charge of history, accounting for the economy of the nation, taxes, forecasting, and arcane magic. They are in charge of stronghold design and storehouses. They represent the branch of the church into which the druids dumped the cooperating members of the Jongan traditions. In the church they could be given power to encourage development, but also watched carefully. At this point they are fully assimilated, but no represent the second most powerful arm of the church. They serve as the scribes/advocates for the courts and the recorders/heralds for the democratic gatherings. The lampwatcher, a Cressian interpretation of the Jongan fire diety, is thier patron.
the wanderers are in charge of road design and protection, caravan guidance, trade, and stronghold and storehouse protection as well as general courier and information services. They also help train the militias and patrol the wilderness areas surrounding and within the village group. They plan the route and delivery of each village groups market caravan guided by the dictates of the other guilds and the village consensus. They are the couriers and escorts of both the courts and the democratic gatherings. Their patron is the lady of flowers and coral, a deity who developed out of the Cressians new respect for the rose lined roads and coral lined ports.

Most Cressians are very proud of their way of life and nation. The tail of their great wars with the Jongans have been mythologized into the wars of Rose and Fire in which the Jongans are seen as a people misguided by their sociopathic way of life into attacking the obviously morally superior Cressians. The narrative claims that the Cressians learn to grow thorns to support themselves, but that the Jongans easily adopt to the Cressian way of life when they see the madness of their 'burning ways.' Ethnic Jongans are occasionally the butt of jokes, but they have also bought the official view and are happily integrated into the society, aside form the occasional rebel who has heard and believed a secret oral history of the Jongan nation. The courts are known as the meetings of the rose briars, and the democratic gatherings are known as the convocations of the Blooming flowers. Both attract great attention from the whole village group, particularly as the courts are convened at every religious festival, and their are many, to adjudicate weddings, major property transfers, adoption into one of the guilds, and honors as well as criminal proceedings. Memorial and initiation ceremonies are held at the flowerings which are called at the specific ceremonial moments, the first rose flowering being the most memorable, and whenever massive decisions must be made: canal changes, requests for militia aid, changes in the law, distributions of market funds, that sort of thing.

The other major social structure in Cressia are the massive market cities. These are fairly large urban centers, though by no means metropolitan the largest being 50,000 during the greatest religious ceremonies. Population flows into the city on market and festival days, but the cities always contain the following institutions:
Large temples for guild administration in the surrounding village groups.
A prison.
Vast fortifications and a large military encampment.
Transportation hubs.
Steady water supplies.
Stockades into which and out of which large quantities of the animals that Cressia relies on are bred and processed.
Magical research facilities including large gardens.
Industrial complexes for building armor, heavy tools, ships, and specialty goods.
Storehouses for emergency goods, such as grain for famine, extra weapons, material for rebuilding infrastructure, a treasury with reserve funds, etc.
Giant libraries.
Two central features:
A vast and complex market area into which the goods of other market cities and the goods of the surrounding village groups flow.
A giant complex of temples and palaces in which the leaders and support staff for the upper church hierarchy live, the gatherings of the local village group representatives are held, and the largest religious festivals and entertainment events occur.


Overall Cressia has expanded slowly as the Cressians are careful to maintain the elaborate infrastructures that make their land fertile and that are the foundation of their defenses. The Jongan isle is notably different from the Cressian mainland only in that the relgious centers of the Market cities are less developed and elaborate while the military and industrial aspects of Cressian life are even more centralized to the great cities. The church has been careful to even the mix of Jongans and Cressians throughout the empire so as to lessen the threat of revolt or racial violence, a popular tactic in Bronze age civilizations, and careful to promote Cressians in the distinctly Jongan arcane branch of the church. As a result Jongan members of the high church are far more likely to be encounted as people from the other guilds, though they are still a minority overall.

The high church works hard to limit their work in government in such a way that their own power isn't threatened but that they still have plenty of time to devote to religious necesseties. This is why the local governments are so democratic and the low church is so strong. It's also why only members of the high church are likely to have any sort of global or cosmopolitan awareness. The high church includes important and heroic members of the society from all walks of life. While the clerical and druidic members have the greater prestige, there is no way the Cressian hierarchy is going to ignore the importance of the Wanderers sailors, the scribes, or the military. Politics at the level of the high church can be pretty nasty, but the common emphasis on the importance of religion and religious ceremonies is a strong force for unity and peace.


I based a lot of this on North American civilizations such as the Maya and the Inca who I feel are going to have a lot in common with the Cressians based on their conservative use of land the importance of religion in their empires. Though I have also thrown in some Eastern Mediterranean/Fertile Crescent dynamics. A bunch of Egypt in there.

Militarily I think the Cressians are going to rock at defense and naval superiority. I doubt they will be as good on the offensive, and other nations are likely to have superior battlefield tactics and large formations of elite units. Still I think the Cressian use of light units and magical superiority will make them competitive overall. Their strong central organization and broad social organization can have advantages and disadvantages for them. Overall societal unity is a big plus.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Sorry about the long post, I just love this thread so much that I can't help but get carried away.

mmmm, high bronze age, and we can construct our very own Illiad, right here!

 

[Tonguez]

Sorry about the long post, I just love this thread so much that I can't help but get carried away.

mmmm, high bronze age, and we can construct our very own Illiad, right here!

I like that Dr. Strangemonkey i think I might have to adopt the culture outlined there and use it in a future game

What I am interested in atm though is the manner in which the Beastmen and any Awakened animals might 'fit' into this society, what will their status be and how will they be 'controlled' if such control is required.

I like the image (in my mind) of a Gnoll-like Beastman walking through the city and being greeted as a hero by the Cressian citizens. They form a distinct - and distinctive - part of Cressian society and are well respected by the public at large.
None the less there is some fear of them and especially around the Festival of the Full Moon - which are the monthly Holy Days of the Dog Mother - when the Dog Warriors are required to gather in the Temple.

Now what I am wondering is what is the political status of Dog Warrior 'beastmen?' do the Dog Warriors form a distinct 'Guild' having a semi-religious function - hey Druidic paladins!, are they dispersed across the general populace or are they something else?

Come to think of it what has happened to all the dogs born from the Dog Mother? Do these celestial dogs yet roam the cities unfettered and free to do as they choose?