Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

gewd lawd!!!

The turtle is theoretically possible, but that is a heck of a lot of bronze, which is very valuable stuff, to make a single very heavy thing.

It's the sort of thing that makes no sense for a historical bronze culture to even think of devising. Unless that culture can wants to bring individuals who are capable of doing tremendous damage to men, but can't wear armor, into battle.

If you can train a small group of men or things to move the thing over uneven ground and nastiness then you would have the beginings of mage knights. Gard that's nasty.

I don't even think you would need to cover such a thing with bronze to do it effectively. Wicker covered in treated hide would be lighter, cheaper, and easier to maintain. Bronze would be useful for the support structure and nice benefits like scythes, however.

I'm not certain that it wouldn't make more sense to build these to a grand scale. Make them out of modular components so they can be shipped. Land. Assemble them so that they resemble two story towers with a very broad base. Have the infantry pick them up and move them in protected comfort. And then blast anything that looks nasty until your men are close enough to put the structure down, arm themselves, push spears through the now dislodged front wall, and charge the enemy.

Shuddering horrors that's a wicked way of using arcane spell casters. Maybe the bards could develop a song to get all the infantry to act together without getting terribly tired or confused. Would be useful on rowing ships as well.

 

[s/LaSH]

The portable wicker fortress substitute for the Turtle does make more sense, I suppose. But the mobility is still an issue. If it were to be practical, you'd have to have people at the center moving it and people at the outside defending it, plus some hefty coordination, if it were big enough. Possible reason for the Jongans to domesticate beasts of burden, maybe raid them from the Cresians...

However, if it's built big enough, you could easily put a mage on top and have them hurl attack or summon spells at anything in range. I can't remember... do the Cresians have javelins? Or just melee spears? A tower with a broad enough base could certainly boost a mage far too high to have rocks and poorly-designed projectiles thrown at him.

Or is that a silly idea? The Jongans like fortress towers in their homeland... what about these things on the battlefield? I'm not sure what level of artisanship would be required to build one of these things, and (I think) wood can only build 2-3 stories before becoming unsafe. Maneuverability is an issue, but as a battlefield unit with elite guards they can sit slightly behind the lines and blast away at the Cresians. They might even be high enough to fire over the walls of the fortress ports, in which case put a staircase in and you've got a quick an easy way to load troops directly onto the walls.

However, as I've said, the Jongans wouldn't develop such a device until they realised that the fortress ports were less than pregnable. (Is that even a word?) So you wouldn't see them in raids, just sieges.

Meanwhile, I've remembered that when the second wave hit, the Cresians were growing coastal watchtowers, but they weren't ready yet. And since that confrontation, the Jongans haven't attacked the coast with fire and the sword again... so the trees are probably largely intact and mature by the time the port fortresses are ready. Although the Jongans raids begin to die off around that time, the towers are still manned just in case. If the Jongans do land a siege force, the Cresians are going to know about their strange weapons and perhaps stock up on the wood warping spells... and if the Jongan attack fails, the Cresians now know how to enter Jongan fortresses.

Of course, the Cresians don't have to build siege towers... they can grow them. Unfortunately, there's no spell I could find that allows them to grow an instant tree, but if they do develop that ability the Jongan fortresses are screwed... a tree growing beside the wall not only allows enemy troops to climb in, but damages the wall.

And with the increased role of magic in combat, someone's bound to develop Dispel Magic... it will banish summons and suppress magic weapons, and although it won't stop the beastmen or scurvy sea dogs (arr), it will allow at least some measure of defence on either side from magic. It's powerful for the era, but not too powerful.

It occurs to me that Animate Dead is within the reach of the Cresians, but they wouldn't use it, and the Jongans probably aren't powerful enough to cast a level 5 spell. So undead are still out of the picture, unless the Cresians get really desparate.

 

[F5]

It's way out of scope for this particular conflict, but something like Daern's Instant Fortress would make an interesting addition to siege warfare. You send in a small squad of mages with one of these and some Wall Of Stone spells and you don't have to worry about building siege towers, in seconds you can build an effective CASTLE, right outside the enemy's door.

Modify it slightly, so that it doesn't have the magical defenses of the normal Fortress, but it can be dispelled and activated at will. Your troops move in, they -blink- a fortress tower into existance, use it to gain control of an area, deactivate it and push on a few hundred yards. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Or you could modify the Leomund's spells to pop up instant bunkers. You don't need to drag a siege tower with you, you just get a wizard close enough and create it there. Like I said, out of scope here, but an interesting thought.

 

[Tonguez]

The problem with Turtles -and most other heavy war engines- is that they become a hindrance when crossing uneven terrain and what with their swamps, bramble paths and entangled plains Cressia has a LOT of uneven ground - and the druids are creating more - which means that the Turtles are moving at a crawl if at all.

Of course the Instant Fortress makes that whole point moot.

Yes the Cressians do have Jevelins and bows - they are descended from nomadic hunters - ranged weapons only make sense.

Also I'm a bit iffy about Jongan invention of the Wheel simply because Islands aren't places where wheels tend to0 get invented - the small confined spaces don't usually have much demand for them and the movement of inland ships to the sea is imo better achieved by invention of canals and slipways (is big muddy slopes down which the ship can slide - ever see that japanese festival where they ride huge logs down a slope?).

 

[Zaruthustran]

Familiars = overwhelming recon advantage

As others point out, coral reefs take a long, long time to build. Even with magical help, I don't think the Jongans have to worry about coral.

The coastal defense trees are another matter. So, the Jongans learn to NOT row directly to Cresia, but instead to row along the coast until they find a clear landing area.

Coastlines are long, and extremely difficult to defend in force. Especially considering the limited population and lack of long-range communication. Remember, all communication at this age must go by foot--it would take several *days* for news of an attack on the coast or borders to reach the interior. And by that time, the attackers would be long gone.

It would be a simple matter to row a couple miles along the coast, land, and completely avoid the Cresian coastal defenses--whether those defenses are trees, coral, kelp, or massed sea creatures.

Once on land, the Jongan forces begin to use their Secret Weapons: flying familiars. Aerial reconnaissance is an extreme advantage in warfare. Especially when your aerial reconaissance can see in the dark (+14 Spot for Owl). Familiars can also be used for communication between groups. Ravens can speak, after all.

It's unlikely that the Cresians would be wary of flying birds, and even if the birds were attacked by summoned flying foes, the tougher Familiar could just retreat back to the safety of the Jongan force (by a circuitous route, of course).

So, using flying familiars as scouts, several stealthy Jongans raiding parties land and are able to avoid masses of Cresians. The familiars are able to locate the Cresian Druids and Clerics as they go about their daily lives--or rest at night. The Jongans act on this information and assassinate the Cresian clergy with lightning night raids. They pick off any survivors who might try to run and give warning of the attacks (familiars delivering Shocking Grasp touch attacks, or Magic Missile from afar). Each small raiding party should be able to slay many clergy before they're forced to retreat (again, using flying familiars to spot and thereafter avoid approaching Cresian reprisal parties). The Jongans burn as they go, using the fires as cover and as a distraction (forcing the Cresians to chose between pursuit and fighting the fire/rescuing people).

If the Jongans are clever and make sure to have their familiars act "natural" (as in, the Jongans never have the Familiars hang out with their Jongan masters), the Cresians won't even have a chance to but two and two together--they'll never make the connection between Familiar and wizard.

A few such raids will quickly deplete the Cresian casters, forcing the Cresians to group their remaining casters in a few fortified locations. Without widely-dispersed magical support, the Cresian defenses are severely compromised. The Jongans can resume viking raids and even larger-scale attacks, using their familiars to warn when the Cresian Druids are finally alerted to an attack and set out from their fortresses.

Once the druids come out of hiding to respond to the raids, the Jongans spread out and surround the druid force, using Magic Missile and tried-and-true Summoning spells to pick off casters from range. They also use Faerie Fire spells on enemy casters, giving the archers specific targets to shoot at.

It won't be long until the Jongans have an overwhelming magical advantage as well as their already-established military advantage. Eventually, the Cresians will retreat into a few large, well-fortified cities. The Jongans establish colonies on the coast, gradually take over the land, and either force the Crecians out or absorb them into their culture... although ironically, the stronger Crecian religion/peacetime way of life may overshadow the shallow militaristic culture of the conquerers.

-z

PS: the druids' Animal Companions and Speak With Animals spells are not anywhere near as good as Familiars, since:
1) animals are dumb: Int 2.
2) animals don't understand human language.
3) animals don't have the empathic link or Speak With Master.
4) animals can't follow complex plans
5) animals can't adjust plans "on the fly"
6) animals can't report/receive new orders during a mission
7) animals are unreliable, have trouble with concepts such as time, can't really differentiate between unfamiliar individuals, and so on.

Example:
Druid (casts Speak with Animals): Hawk, my Animal Friend, fly and look for enemy troops, then come back to me!
Hawk: (Flies away. Comes back in 1 minute. Or 2 hours. Or 2 days.)
Druid (casts another Speak with Animals): What did you see?
Hawk: Men.
Druid: Jongan men?
Hawk: Men. Men are Men. Saw men.
Druid: Did they have weapons?
Hawk: Weapons?
Druid: (points to sword, spear of companions) Weapons--like these?
Hawk: Yes.
Druid: Where were the men?
Hawk: Not here. Away.
Druid: Yes, but where?
Hawk: By tree. In field. (indicates general direction by pointing beak).
Druid: (looks around at hundreds of trees in nearby forest) Argh! Okay, lead us to the Men you saw--we'll follow you.
Hawk: (Flies away, leads Druid to a group of Cresian farmers wielding shovels and hoes)
Hawk: Scree!
Druid: What?
Hawk: Scree!
Druid: Oh, my spell wore off. (casts another Speak with Animals). What?
Hawk: Men here! Feed me now?
Druid: Argh! Well, it's getting dark. Let's camp. Hawk, you stand watch.
Hawk: Watch?
Druid: Start calling if you see any Men approach.
Hawk: Okay. (guard walks up to help Druid set up camp) Scree!
Druid: No, no--yell if a Jongan approaches.
Hawk: What is Jongan? Mouse? Mouse tasty.
Druid: (sighs) Just guard me--like the Trick I taught you.
Hawk: Okay.
(Later, a Jongan owl familiar spots the camp. The Jongans approach and attack at night--some mages use Dancing Lights to illuminate the camp for Jongan archers, while others use Burning Sphere to sow panic and burn tents. The Crecians have no targets for return fire. The Druid comes out of his tent, the owl Spots him and his master hits him with a Faerie Fire. The archers and other mages concentrate fire on the Druid. Once he's down, they mop up the others.)
Hawk: Scree! (flaps off into the dark, scratches an archer, archer grabs and crushes bird)
Jongan archer: Check it out--new feathers for my arrows!
Raven familiar: Nice! Stupid bird.
Owl familiar (laughing): Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Raven familiar: So where to next, my friends?

 

[RangerWickett]

Regarding wheels, I know that the Easter Islanders supposedly just used logs as primitive tracks to roll things on, continually having to move more logs to the front of the track, if that makes any sense.

However, I must say I love the idea of fog as a military weapon. It's definitely feasible, and if you train your forces to fight in fog while theirs aren't prepared, you should be able to strike hard and fast. Especially since you'll be going around quietly while they have bright flaming torches to help you find them. And don't forget the werewolves. I also love the idea that fireball of all things will get invented in reaction to a simple obscuring mist spell. Those are both brilliant ideas. How do you think tactics would change to make use of fog as cover?

As for siege engines . . . eh, I'm not so sure of them getting used. It's hard to carry them overseas, and indeed they were usually built relatively close to their target, and only after the defenders had holed themselves up for a while.

So how about we move onto the next phase of this encounter? So far the entire conflict has lasted almost ten years. Both sides' numbers have been whittled down, so they can each only field about 500 to 1000 total people of fighting age (consider that 10 years ago there were only 3000 Cresians overall, and it becomes obvious that the Cresians are forced to be cautious or even have those who are normally non-combatants be trained in the arts of war.

The Cresians have attacked the Jonga island a few times in raids, doing far better than the Jonga's attempts to do the same, because attempts to fend off the Cresians were stymied by the Jonga's own plantlife. Thus, they clear out the coast of trees (and use logs to shore up defenses, so that the coast now can only be landed upon at certain spots). They prepare for another invasion, providing mildly enchanted weapons and even bronze armor to their best warriors, and building enough ships to send almost a thousand soldiers.

When the Jonga again try to invade, this time firing flaming arrows from a distance into the coastal grass on Cresia to try to drive off any wildshaped spellcasters. It's not terribly effective, but it does give them a better chance of landing and disembarking. Plus with their new control of counter magic (since they were able to interrogate charmed prisoners and figure out how Cresian magic works), they can dispel summons sent at their ships and uncharm attacking animals, so a large force gets onto the shore and starts to march as one large unit toward the heart of the country. Signal birds sent from the coastal treeforts alert the heartland. The two primary fortified towns on the coast are attacked one at a time, both falling. Then the Jonga march toward the heartland, taking their time and burning fields ahead of them and waiting before they continue to march. By the time they reach the heartland, they have left a trail of scorched earth in their path. They don't intend to conquer Cresia, just destroy it.

But the Cresians have one final trick to play. As the two armies prepare to meet for one of the first engagements in the heartland, dozens of Cresian magic-users conjure great mists to shroud their warriors. The mist is too wide-spread an effect to dispel, so the Jonga are hard-pressed to counter this tactic (this is before fireballs are invented).

In the ensuing conflict, hit and run tactics in the mist, plus skillful usage of the now less-savage beastmen is critically successful in causing panic among the Jonga invaders. When some groups try to flee, they find themselves blocked by lines of entangling plants and thorny brush. Their army is able to maintain some semblance of control while they are still able to use horns and song to rally the forces, but when the Cresian priestesses use their howling song, the invaders are left deaf and blind. Chaos reigns, and ranks break. Many flee back to the coast but most are killed in a numbing battle that lasts into the night. Those who survive it recall it as if it had been a dream, walking through the mists until you encounter a foe to kill, or an ally to help.

Worst of all, the few tree fort soldiers who hid from the initial invasion were able to outwit the invaders. Though the Jonga had dispelled the charms that had made the Cresian fleet's animals loyal, they sent most of their spellcasters inland on the offensive, since they didn't have enough men to spare. Unfortunately, their hopes for a fast, overwhelming victory were impossible. Thus, the Cresians were able to re-charm the necessary animals and destroy those still remaining with the invasion fleet.

When some of the Jonga who escape try to flee, most find their ships already destroyed, or are unable to break through the Cresian navy.

The Cresians pay a heavy price, but they are victorious.

 

[RangerWickett]

No familiars for the Jonga. The Cresians have the lion's share of animal support in this scenario. Plus you posted a little too late, since I'd already started typing by the time you posted, so I missed all those wonderful ideas. We'll see if we can fit them in next time.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for that (pesky (and long) animal friendship criticism...

Well, maybe next time, if the Jongans are in any shape at all to counterattack. They've got to learn to *not* attack where the Cresians are strong. Ah well.

-z, who somehow missed that the druids were able to wildshape. That ability somewhat nullifies the advantage of Familiar recon.

 

[Ciaran]

So, whither Jonga and Cresia?

I think it’s worth noting a few things about Jongan culture. They already have swords, shields and military formations. Thus, unlike the Cresians, this isn’t their first war; it isn’t even their third or fourth. This is a culture that has clearly been through a lot of violent conflict in the past. In addition, they’re embarking on a war of annihilation with a distant, non-aggressive culture over the death of a single Jongan.

And what was he doing in Cresia, anyway? It strains credulity that he shows up on the one day a year that the Cresian beastmen are participating in their ritual hunt, just in time to be slaughtered. And he did not come alone; the Jongans knew where to send their ships to retaliate, so he must have been part of a group, one that managed to enter and move through Cresia without being noticed by the Cresians.

My theory? This isn’t the first Jongan war of annihilation. The islanders send out war parties to explore other lands, and when they encounter another culture, they spy on the natives for a while, and then send out a wave of ships to slaughter the natives and take their stuff. Maybe they had a justification for this practice in the past -- the Jongan islands may once have been home to a dozen warring tribes, making it necessary to do unto the neighboring tribe before they do you in -- but now, they’re unabashed aggressors. It’s only now, in Cresia, that they’ve bitten off more than they can chew.

Does this seem like a reasonable analysis of the situation?

 

[RangerWickett]

Does this seem like a reasonable analysis of the situation?

It certainly makes me seem like less of a fool for what I decided would happen.