Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Tonguez]

The Jonga, however, do. They don't want to relent on their attacks, so every month or so, the Jonga send one or two ships to strike coast, burn a village, and retreat. This leads to the Cresians abandoning their diverse array of coastal villages, instead building up the two or three that haven't been burned down (much) as places of refuge for large numbers of people. They keep a coastal defense fleet, and try to figure out ways to protect their sea beasts of burden.

The Cresian tradition of shapeshifting is expanded upon, now that the Cresians are having a greater interaction with the ocean. So we eventually end up with an order of shapeshifting seagoers, sorta . . . scurvy sea dogs. (sorry)

The Jonga realize they have to fortify their own defenses, so they clearcut any woods on the coast and bring it inland. For safety's sake they have to build ships inland now, but it makes their homeland more secure. They also realize that Cresians aren't apparently able to warp stone or metal, so they build stone look-out posts along the shore and along major roads. Finally, their mages develop multiple ways of disrupting, scaring, or killing the sea beasts that draw Cresian fleets.

The Jonga have signed their own death warrant!

Buttercups wonderfully inspired idea of growing a wall of Coral along the Cresian coast means that the Viking tactics are no longer effective. The Coral tears into the hulls of the Jonga ships allowing the teeming schools of Jellyfish, the Cresian Sea Wolves and Sharks to feast on Jongan flesh
(ps if you are ever in Brisbane don't swim in the sea- those bluebottles sting! - unfortunately I found out the hard way)

The Coral has only a few openings and these are well patrolled by the Dolphin skiffs. (ooc personally I think your ruling on the sail is a bit off if I may say so - really as soon as a culture can make a peice of fine weave cloth it can make a sail - and I think the Cresians are advanced enough for weaving). Also I suggest that the Cressians develop outrigger and multihull 'catamaran' tech especially for the Whale ships. They are much more manouverable and easy to build (all thats required is a couple of dugout canoes and a few long poles - stone age tech in the Pacific at least). These craft are generally faster and more manouverable than larger, deeper 'displacement hull' (ie standard yatch/sailing ships) designs. They also make sense with the Cresians reliance on quick strikes and the shallow drafts help in case of coral outcrops

The Jongans biggest mistake however was cutting down their coastal forest. It may limit use of entangle but it also leads to soil erosion, the encroachment of sand onto formerly furtile gardens and makes the Jonga interior vunerable to the Hurricaine force winds which the Cressians are now working on as their new secret weapon.

Wind control was initially developed to counter the Jongas slash and burn policy - the wind being able to turn the fire against the Jonga and where neccesary help extinguish it. This has developed and the Cressians can now summon hurricaines (whilst staying out of range at sea on the whale boats) which will blast far into the Jongan interior (the coastaol forest having been removed) pushing both waves and sdand far inland and destroying all in its path. (any winds blowing towards Cressia are bvlocked by the reef intially but also but its bulwark of trees and brambles.

Wind control also leads on to general weather control and thus lightning strikes are used to burn the few forests left standing after the hurricaines

Having seen the effects which sea and salt have on crops the Cressians then move onto to developing magics which blight and wither crops as much as those which help them grow. They also send hordes of disease carrying rats into the Jongan towns and spread plague amongst the already malnourished population

Their crops destroyed, their towns diseased the Jonga are doomed...

or are they?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Poison isn't too hard to master if you can secure a supply.

Poisoning weapons is more of an individual skill you have to teach to people than an industry you have to develop and support several large groups of craftsmen for in order to secure a supply.

People with the Cressians level of organization generally do pretty well against raiders. From the three stronghold villages they can organize systems of watchmen, evacuation plans, and response teams. Most of their villages become more like camps, but overall they would still be able to utilize the coastline and the raids would cost them little while gaining them valuable experience.

Small, seaworthy, and very maneuverable boats are something the Cressians are likely to develop as a result of their magical advnatages and their need to move their boats into small protected coves and channels when the Jongans attack. Though I think that larger warships are also likely to come together.

Overall I think the Jonga raiding strategy will prove to be a very expensive means of keeping the Cressians occupied.

I wholeheartedly agree that invasion of the Jonga does not seem to be in the Cressian character, but I also think that they are going to become more powerful than the Jongans are as a result of this warfare.

The Cressians will end up masters of light infantry with some skill at heavy formations, in a far better position from which to develop cavalry, superior food supplies, a skill at naval warfare that promises to improve drastically over time, and very improved magic usage.

Eventually they will also pick up a lot of the technology. A key component of Cressian development in this conflict will be the acquisition of a Jongan force. All it would take is the Cressians isolating a Jongan force and then offering them terms. Then the Jongans are moved deep into the plains, beyond the limit of previos Jongan incursions, and put into highly controlled mixed communities. From them the Cressians will be able to acquire some very valuable Jongan techniques. Bronze working is still dang hard to do unless you have access to a vast trading network or tin is far more common in this world than on Earth, and the raiding parties are unlikely to include a highly valued bronze smith. But the prisoners are likely to have a high understanding of weapons maintenance and formation tactics and if they are treated well and given good land, they will inevitably be happy to talk. Some will certainly know and practice unique forms of Jongan agriculture and architecture.

This sort of interaction is fairly common in the early history of civilizations. And I think its very possible for the Cressians to isolate a force or two as well. They are more mobile, can prepare the terrain if they make an effort and are lucky, and they don't have to rely on boats to get the prisoners anywhere. Heck if they get agents on the Jongan island they are certain to find an unhappy aristocrat who is willing to defect with his retinue at some point, then its just a question of not killing off the right raiding party.

I love the idea of a deliberate great barrier reef. That fits perfectly with the thorny rose bushes. The Cressians are never going to get scurvy with all those rose hips around, and they are going to end up with both great defenses and fantastic ecologies.
They need it too, a diet based population boom will save them from the depredations of the large invasions.

And the Jongans are royally screwed by getting rid of their coastal forests. I just read an article on the dissapearance of the medieval European coastal forests, oddly enough a near totally natural event in most places, and the effects were horrible. Took them a long time to figure out how to fix sand dunes with North African plants and rabbits.

Classical Athens experienced some truly horrendous environmental effects from the deforestation necessary to build their fleet and the devastation caused by Spartan raids in the Pellopenessian War.

The basic equation for Cressian supremacy, however, is that to conquer one must be able to destroy the opposing army and occupy the disputed land. The Jongan's are able to do neither, and while the Cressians do not have superiority in pitched battle, they can do real damage using guerrilla tactics and they are great at occupying the land.

In the end, I see a lengthy stale mate, until one side or the other either comes up with a brilliant plan or negotiates or both. With the Cressians probably expanding and improving their empire a great deal.

 

[Tonguez]

And the Jongans are royally screwed by getting rid of their coastal forests. I just read an article on the dissapearance of the medieval European coastal forests, oddly enough a near totally natural event in most places, and the effects were horrible. Took them a long time to figure out how to fix sand dunes with North African plants and rabbits.

Yep just look at what happened when the Great Sahara forest disappeared!

 

[s/LaSH]

Well, I'd have to agree with the consensus...

The Jongan fortification phase is a strategic error. They hold the technological edge, but by retreating they allow the Cresians time to advance their own technology, lay a fleet of hulls, and train a bigger army. Furthermore, if the Cresians get their act together (and it's allowed) the coral barricade will permanently kill any hope the Jongans have of making any further raids.

The thing about coral, however, is that the reef itself isn't alive; it's the discarded shelters of billions of generations of polyps. Coral reefs are millions of years old. If the Cresians try to build a coral barrier, they're in for a rude surprise... unless they find a way to kill 99% of the coral polyps in a given area, then grow them back. Does anyone think Summon Swarm could become deadly if adapted to this purpose? (OK, it's a non-standard spell. But it's not too far off, and the reef itself isn't summoned, it's built by the summon.)

Then again, the same thing can be said about human hair and outer skin... it's not alive, either, but it sure looks that way. So perhaps Plant Growth could promote the expansion of coral. It's a difficult point to adjudicate, and if coral can be propagated in this way the Jongans are doomed, no two ways about it. The Jongans can't suppress the Cresian war machine if they're reefed off, and the Cresians can prepare for a long siege (as the Jongans aren't beaten yet).

The Jongans, of course, would do their best to stop this, but sonics and fire aren't too effective underwater, especially not against rock. And even if they do kill the polyps, the Cresians just come back the next day and grow more - the Jongans actively help in their own destruction.

So what do the Jongans do while all this is going on? They're building mighty fortresses... they're standing to lose dominion over the sea... and they're engaging in summoning experiments. Could they possibly develop aerial cavalry?

This is EXTREMELY hypothetical, I should point out.

Whatever gods the Jongans follow are certainly willing to assist their chosen people in their fight against the Cresians. The Cresians recieved the gift of lycanthropy; why don't the Jongans recieve a similar gift in the form of a tame griffon - or wyvern?

If a single breeding pair is recieved (with a divine blessing to prevent inbreeding), the Jongans could concievably have a single strike force (of a half dozen griffon) in 2-3 years, and two dozen in 4-6 years. I anticipate that the Cresians would launch a full-scale assault only when they feel they're ready - that could easily take 5 years, and maybe longer.

Aerial cavalry gives the Jongans the ability to launch long-distance raids from their fortresses even during a state of siege. It also gives them the ability to pass over coral barriers, entanglement, and nearly every benefit the Cresians have developed. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Jongans would get enough in the way of numbers to turn the tide before the Cresians rolled onto Jonga and started besieging their fortresses with superior numbers.


I also anticipate that the Jongans would become adept trap-makers. Starting with pit-traps on their roads to deter Cresian invaders, and moving up to murder holes in their fortress entrances. (I wouldn't say molten lead is beyond them, and molten gold could well be used if they're truly desparate. Anyway, spears and stones and boiling water are just as effective.)

Finally, the Cresians have their own fleet... why don't they go exploring? They've explored in all directions to find the Jongans. What else did they find? And did they stop when they found their enemy, or did they keep going to the local equivalent of Africa? The thought of Cresian elephant riders is quite invigorating.

 

[F5]

No sailing ships yet. The actual distance between the two countries is probably something like 30 miles, so sails aren't really necessary either.

Ah. I see I jumped the technological gun a little. Must remember that we're only 100 years or so out of the early bronze age. Like Tonguez said, it's not hard to make or use a simple sail. However, with the Cresians' low level of understanding, it wouldn't be a complex, multi-sailed rig, but a big sheet on a stick. Probably tried and abandoned in favor of the (for now) much more effective Cetacian Tow (tm). This may come back to bite them way down the road, as sails would be much better over long distances, and they'll probably be behind when sailing technology is developed in full.

I'm liking the mental image of a narrow skiff of a boat, being pulled at high speed by dolphins, with warriors wielding harpoons controlling the sea-chariot. Kinda like a bronze-age fantasy jet ski.

Yeah, that's the image I had in mind, too...

I think we're in for a long-term stalemate. The Cresians' coral-barriers, and quick, maneuverable coast guard make their shores near-invulnerable. If the Jongans manage to get communication spells like whispering wind, with their clear-cut shores they have clear line-of-sight to spot incoming ships. With heavy fortification of their cities and shoreline forts, the Cresians will have a hard time landing enough troops to make a direct attack feasable. There are way s around these defenses...the Cresians land ships at night, the Jonga land ships far down the coast and march in overland, but both of these maneuvers are hard and could be costly.

Ultimately it comes down to a long-term war of attrition and endurance, and with the Jonga's clear-cut and ecologically ruined shoreline, and their lack of magical aid in getting food, they will ultimately lose. What's worse, their own clear-cutting combined with small cresian raids with magical crop-killers and well-poisoners would royally trash their island's fragile ecosystem, and the only ones who could repair it are the Druids of their hated enemies. I think after a year of famine and hunger, they'll be willing to talk terms. Or desperate for magical aid that could turn the tide.

Unless they get their Aerial Cavalry. That will strech the conflict out for longer, but unless they're prepared to eat their griffons, won't solve the larger problem of famine. And would give the animal-handling cresians ideas, as they start breeding up their own giant war eagles.

 

[Ciaran]

So what do the Jongans do while all this is going on? They're building mighty fortresses... they're standing to lose dominion over the sea... and they're engaging in summoning experiments. Could they possibly develop aerial cavalry?

This is EXTREMELY hypothetical, I should point out.

Whatever gods the Jongans follow are certainly willing to assist their chosen people in their fight against the Cresians. The Cresians recieved the gift of lycanthropy; why don't the Jongans recieve a similar gift in the form of a tame griffon - or wyvern?

I think this is implausible, considering the following:

1) The Jongans haven’t yet developed ground cavalry. Aerial cavalry seems a bit over-the-top at this stage of the game.

2) Jongan society isn’t terribly religious, insofar as we’ve seen thus far. They may have a few clerics, but their society is oriented more towards pragmatic, secular solutions for their problems.

3) We don’t even know what god the Jongans worship, but given what we’ve seen of their magics, it’s probably a fire-deity of some sort. We can tie that in with their smithcraft and their bardic traditions, giving the god dominion over the fires of the forge and the artist’s creative spark. In any event, whatever boon the god might give, it wouldn’t be over aerial beasts, but would instead involve fire in some way.

4) The proto-Cresians received their lycanthropic gift when their people were in danger of being destroyed. The Jongans are on the offensive; I can’t see them as feeling sufficiently threatened to pour their hearts and souls into seeking a boon of their gods. Maybe later, when things get tough for the Jongans, but not yet.

- Eric

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, there is one benefit to the Jongans fortifying. The paranoia will make it extremely hard for the Cressians to convert or subvert substantial portions of the population, which is the historically accepted tactic to get rid of raiders. Well, alongside good coastal defenses, rapid response forces, and bribery.

 

[s/LaSH]

Aerial cavalry doesn't look like it's happening just yet. It's just too improbable. The coral reefs still seem possible, though.

Realistically, the Jongans continue with their coastal raids until the Cresian port fortresses are completed, at which point any quick raid either attacks superior numbers in the fortresses, or risks entanglement in the interior. The Jongan raids die down after a while, as the Jongans realise that they're not doing too well out of these exchanges.

To construct ships in the interior of their island, they HAVE to have developed certain key technologies. It's possible that they roll their ships along logs, but this is wood-inefficient and they know they need all the straight timber they can get. So the Jongans are likely to have the wheel and mighty ship-moving carts just so they can get the ships in the water. Initially, their wheels are probably giant, rounded-off treestumps or crossections of large trees with huge wooden or bronze axles, and this won't change for a while (wheel technology is quite sophisticated). These carts are prone to breaking axles. Chariots are millenia off yet, I anticipate, especially on a small island without much room.

However, the advent of the wheel allows certain other advances. Primitive mechanisms can be cobbled together with ratchets, levers and cogs (wheels with big pegs in the side). Small structures suitable for sieges can be fitted with wheels to provide shelter for advancing troops. The biggest advance is the Turtle: a small hut on wheels, roofed with bronze plating, that allows a half dozen Jongan warriors to advance on a fortified location without risk of missile bombardment. Turtles are unused in field warfare, because they're too slow and confine their warriors; spears would make short work of such a device.

The battering ram (a log housed in beaten bronze) may be another development, for use against the Cresian port fortresses. Combined with a Turtle, the Jongans feel they have the ability to launch a powerful assault on the port fortresses and suffer minimal casualties. Their plan: Land on the coast a few miles from the port, offload a large force of siege engineers, summoners and skirmishers, and unleash them on the port all at once. They feel that the Turtle's bronze plating can resist wood shaping spells. (They could well be wrong, of course; wood can be surprisingly powerful.)

This tactic is almost inevitable, as the wheel is the only method I can see that allows Jongans to create a fleet inland, and the rest is simply logical. However, it isn't going to happen overnight; they need time to put together the strike force, and they don't even see the need for such a strike until the Cresians have completed their port fortresses, which could take years.

Another tactic involves huge numbers of fiendish squids and sharks. Having learned to summon such creatures, they would definitely want to put them to good use in naval engagements. The most common tactic involves waiting for a Cresian dolphin skill to begin an attack run, then summoning a number of squids and sharks into their path, largely because dolphins are faster than both squids and sharks. This tactic is limited by the number of spells a Jongan can cast per day.

However... the Jongans see the usefulness of summons after a while, and might wish to be able to cast more. And so they invent the alphabet for the explicit purpose of recording spells on slabs of rock - the first scrolls. While still extremely valuable, these scrolls allow a single caster to perform as many, leaving most of the better casters safe in a fortress somewhere scribing scrolls.

Meanwhile, the Cresians are busy learning about the ocean, and looking back at their ancient history when they had to fight fire-magics in caves. It seems logical that water is the surest way to defeat fire. And, while the Cresians cannot migrate beneath the waves without a SERIOUS divine boon (not forthcoming), they can certainly begin to use it to their advantage. Consider the PHB Water domain at low levels... fog, fog, fog. While dolphins and whales can 'see' with ultrasonic senses underwater, and beastmen can smell out their enemies, the Jongans have no such advantage. Unsuitable for use during a siege, the Cresians nevertheless realise that fog is a perfect cover for an attack, and begin to use it in their naval engagements... and perhaps to cover attacks on Jonga itself, using beastmen. The Jongans shall come to fear the mists of the full moon...

 

[ajanders]

The Fog of war

I'll note in passing that heavy fogs tend to condense moisture onto everything, making it hard to find dry, readily burnable things...though magic may solve that problem easily.

Throw enough fog up and the Jongans may never find Cresia...while I don't know the state of navigation, I doubt it's much more than basic celestial bodies. If the Jongans are really unlucky, they might find the hard rocky bits of Cresia, shipwreck, and get to meet the Cresian sea dogs.
And the fog which blocks line of sight makes it harder for the Jongan spellcasters to target the enemy with their evocations and direct their conjurations.

As the Jongans destroy their wood, they destroy what they need to make ships and indeed, most of their artifacts. Unless they've discovered coal, they're probably crippling their smithing operations for lack of fuel as well. Wood's just too useful a material for primitive people to be afraid of it

If the Cresians can get their hands on plant growth spells, I'd look for a magically created Sargasso Sea to be created between Jonga and Cresia. Most of the seaweed being underwater, it wouldn't burn at all.

 

[F5]

The Cresians' werewolves would be so much more deadly in fog. A squad of wolfmen attacking under cloud cover would decimate even the Jongan's strongest formations. And, while the siege turtles and war carts are effective developments, under a concealing fog (that the werewolves can Scent their way through), they'd be pretty easily overrun.

A big enough fire can burn away fog, though, so the Jongans would build huge bonfires at the sites of their battles. Not too subtle, but then the Jongans don't really go for subtlety anyway. Still, heavy fog banks dampen firewood and tinder, making it hard to light fires naturally. The obvious solution: their mages develop magic to light fires. Since the mages can't be at the forefront of the battle lines, it's not long before they manage spells that start fires at range. From there, it's not a far stretch for the military-minded, fire-loving Jongan mages to create their finest military spell to date: the Fireball. Throw that crowd-pleaser into the mix, and how does that effect the Jongan condition?