Fiendish Codex II next month--Any scoop/rumors/etc.?

[Razz]

OR you could've advanced them yourself.

Sure you can upgrade SR, HD, skills, feats and all that. Anyone can do that.

What no one can really do is grant them new special attacks and special qualities properly. Take note of the SA and SQ differences between the Demon Lords in FCI and the Demon Lords in Demonomicon. You'll note the lower CR ones have SA and SQ missing. Good example would be Graz'zt, who's missing his ability to use any magic device at will and Pazuzu's abilities are missing too in the lower CR one.

The biggest factor in making a creature unique are it's SA and SQ. Those are the driving points of a creature in battle, something that makes players go "Oooh..." Heck, prime example would be on the D&D Website when they were doing that Make-A-Monster article and it ended up being an aberration with ties to fey creatures with whacky abilities.

Case in point, we can turn the tables around: People can decrease a creature's power as easily as they say we can upgrade it's power. Lower HD, lower SR, patch up the skills, take out some feats...at least you won't lose the SA and SQ, and if you want them out just omit them with a thought.

 

[GQuail]

Sure you can upgrade SR, HD, skills, feats and all that. Anyone can do that.

What no one can really do is grant them new special attacks and special qualities properly. Take note of the SA and SQ differences between the Demon Lords in FCI and the Demon Lords in Demonomicon. You'll note the lower CR ones have SA and SQ missing. Good example would be Graz'zt, who's missing his ability to use any magic device at will and Pazuzu's abilities are missing too in the lower CR one.

The biggest factor in making a creature unique are it's SA and SQ. Those are the driving points of a creature in battle, something that makes players go "Oooh..." Heck, prime example would be on the D&D Website when they were doing that Make-A-Monster article and it ended up being an aberration with ties to fey creatures with whacky abilities.

Case in point, we can turn the tables around: People can decrease a creature's power as easily as they say we can upgrade it's power. Lower HD, lower SR, patch up the skills, take out some feats...at least you won't lose the SA and SQ, and if you want them out just omit them with a thought.

I won't deny that the advancement process of a creature merely makes its current powers more powerful than give it unique new ones (although the advancement rules in Fiendish Codex kind of touch upon this) but the insistence that making a monster weaker is equal to or easier than making it harder just does not compute to me, and implying that producting CR 30+ stats for demon lords that say "you can alter them if you want it easier" is in anyway comparable to CR 20 stats saying "you can advance them with HD or class level if you want them harder" doesn't seem paticularly realistic.

There is a pre-existing system for increasing monster power - 3E even had several ways of doing this, be it HD, class levels or templates. (Those who wish more powerful monsters could possibly look at giving them Divine Rank, whcih would also give them access to some funky powers.) People who wish to make things more powerful have options available to them; peopel who wish to make them weaker have no pre-existing options apart from a couple of pretty specific temples, IIRC. A monster provided at CR 30 would, as Psion said, simply not get used: one that's Cr 20 can be modded up so even the the ECL 70 party can still get something out of it.

Still, I'll concede that advanced monsters and a mosnter made at that CR can often vary greatly in the nature of their powers. One cannot just throw HD infinitely on a CR 3 monster and expect it will be an equal challange to an ECL 20 party as a out of the book CR 20 monster would be: and putting 5 levels of Cleric on Orcus or whatever does not really add a huge amount to his output. At epic level, the CR system rea;y does start to go a bit wobbly IMHO and you really do have to test out monsters more thouroughly to check their CR truly reflects their power. Just, unlike you, I think that should remain a task for the epic-level minority and material directly aimed at them, not the Fiendish Codexes.

 

[GQuail]

But in any event, Archdevil stats are the absolute rockbottom lowest thing on my list of things I want out of the book. So while I've got concerns about the presentation, I'll be more keenly looking at other aspects of the book certainly, and I've got high expectations.

Yeah, I know I', not helping this thread by warbling on this topic,but I do wnat to chime in againa nd say that I'm also really looking forward to it, and that if it's anything like the last one the stats will not be a major part of the book regardles.

 

[Pants]

Sure, except isn't that part of what we'd be paying *them* to do, i.e., by buying the book they put together?

Except no one seems to agree on *what the power level should be.* Remember that big discussion back then?

 

[Ripzerai]

I'm not convinced that the FC2 archfiends will be on the same power level as the FC1 archfiends. A lot of the discussion here is predicated on that.

Besides the fact that WotC products aren't always consistent with one another, why shouldn't Asmodeus be substantially stronger than Demogorgon? After all, there are hundreds of Abyssal lords, and only nine rulers of the Nine Hells.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Except no one seems to agree on *what the power level should be.* Remember that big discussion back then?

Oh yes. I remember.

In fact, I also remember that there has not been even *one* persuasive argument as to why the power levels should be so incredibly low (incredibly, given what these necessarily uber-powerful beings are meant to be/represent/rule over etc.)

The most popular line of thought seem to be: "That's how they are. Deal."

Which is fine by me, btw. I know that's how they are, and I have dealt. But acceptance of the reality of a situation doesn't automatically negate any issues therein.

I still think there is a problem with power levels in D&D products, currently. Epic-level shouldn't be the alleged 'crazy-go-nuts' territory that inspires fear, loathing or simply ridicule. It should be as vaild as 1-20. Perhaps WotC could produce an Epic line, some day. Maybe next ed. Just to keep me and all the other crazies happy, or something.

 

[Zaukrie]

So no one knows anything about the product? Too bad, I was hoping the length of the thread meant someone knew something.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'm not convinced that the FC2 archfiends will be on the same power level as the FC1 archfiends. A lot of the discussion here is predicated on that.

Besides the fact that WotC products aren't always consistent with one another, why shouldn't Asmodeus be substantially stronger than Demogorgon? After all, there are hundreds of Abyssal lords, and only nine rulers of the Nine Hells.

Well the Hell only has 9 little sissy levels. Not the 666+ levels of the Abyss.

 

[Eridanis]

OK. The poster asked for info about the book, and the old advancement argument flared up from the ashes again. Not to say that it isn't a fair argument, if conducted courteously, but this isn't the thread for it.

Please keep this thread focused on a discussion of the book, and please feel free to start a new thread about CRs. Better yet: please resurrect an old thread and keep flogging away. We had enough of them when FC1 came out!

 

[Kelleris]

EDIT: Aargh, that be what I be gettin' for typin' while a Mod be typin'. *kerfloosh*

Certainly I still think that whatever baseline power level they've established they should stick to, with some adjustment for the "tons of demon lords, only 9 devil princes" thing and the fact that Asmodeus may or may not be one of the progenitors of the multiverse, if I'm remembering my 2e lore correctly.