Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

[pawsplay]

Except that:

a) Meat shields have no way to be 'sticky' in 3.5E. That dragon can just wander right by the fighter, so his presence is invalid anyway.

First of all, that's not true. There are AoOs, and there are a number of scenarios under which a dragon does not want to incur one (wounding dragonbane weapon, anyone?). The fighter can also ready an action to interpose himself if the dragon does move. If the fighter has to shadow the wizard, he can at least rest assured the dragon must choose each round whether to attack the wizard with cover, or to move and take only a standard action.

Second, it's my assumption that many party members will prefer to engage the dragon from a range, in which case, the dragon may choose to breathe or use a spell, facing further harassment from the fighter, or to attack the fighter, forsaking attempts to close.

Third, the fighter can simply charge or otherwise harry the dragon each round while the wizard maneuvers, again, limiting the dragon to standard actions.

b) Nothing will get near a well-played wizard. Particularly with Celerity. Their exist strategies are numerous. Nor will Spell Resistance matter when you have things like Assay Spell Resistance.

Nothing?

 

[insanogeddon]

Disagree.

My ever in flux group we have played all the 1 - 20 modules (finishing off the latest) and most assuredly always have campaigns that go 1 to 20 module or not, whether we need to change dms or not. 2x we even went epic (22 and 25th level respectively).
Warriors often outshine the casters. Unless casters are mollycoddled.

If you insist on comparing base classes naked then casters cannot cast as they have no components. INATE in the system are wealth tables per level, items, artefacts, and character interactions.

If a 12th + level character has not got the respect/indebtment of MANY a church/organisation/person it begs the question how you got to that level. If your group cannot cast a spell you really should be able to go to many, many npcs that can. Look at big business/governments or any other powerful entities... they trade/they assist eachother. Why would a campaign treat pcs differently?

All our gm/dms understand the dynamic. PCs aren't bubble boys who cannot touch foreign objects the entire universe is out to scupper nor are they protected by bubbles that are immune to highlevel, powerful opponents with tactical experience and intelegence.

If your at 12+ level play and the opponents cannot teleport thru or fly over puny wall spells, have spell resistance etc etc what opponents do you fight? gobilins?

If they aren't practiced at targeting or dispelling highly magical threats or using spells like 'protection from good/evil' to negate summoned goons (or big enough to swat puny summoned critters) they would already be extinct (just like pcs that never dispel the big bads, or non-flying non casting non trading plains dwelling monsters).

There are wealth tables for a REASON. You remove that its unbalanced. The 15th fighter should have his helm of teleport/cloak of the monte bank, ring of free action, boots of fly, potion of invis etc.

I have yet to see the caster (their not the best at spotting) not surrounded by companions that survives the invisible highly intelegent and experienced demons full attack. For that matter they struggle when visible demons/devils port in beside each party member... not to mention grapple (you can lock mouths shut with a sucesful check as well as do damage under the rules). Along with silence casters are really walking dead without a silent d.door or 3 or other get out of/avoid jail card.

5 pcs teleport into your room (all buffed no doubt).. run, exp. if your the demon/dragon with teleport/d.door and a good speed. Come back in 10.

Its the campaigns and so the dm/gms fault if this discrepancy in fighter uselessness occurs. Stick to the rules and you will be fine, it all sorta balances and they all need eachother, some luck and alot of wit!

I have indeedy played in groups where the dm biases the casters... they never get dispelled/grappled despite it being THE obvious tactic exp. from the average bad guys who inevitably are higher level and strong. Yet every fighter weakness is targeted.

In these campaigns the fighter probably gets no items and cannot arrange thru the connections and respect built from a life time of heroics/horrors some equipment.
The world even is not oblivious: there are gods and epic entities... gods want powerful souls, entities want power/lackies etc. The best sports stars get sponsered and companies don't even get to keep their souls
(? perhaps).

Its quite sane to allow a limited planetery resource like a ~15th level character to have connections he can PAY to get equipment necessary to fulfill the intended design of the game you chose to engage with.

Its amazing how a dm that knows his spells (and feats and weapons for that matter) and sticks to the rules and has a sense of cause and effect equalises said rort cheated discrepancy. Woe to me : (

 

[Cadfan]

. . . what? Are you serious? My first thought on this is that you're pulling my leg.

I have the D&D4 PH, and I've looked through it at the low-level stuff (up to around level 6-8). I'll have to look through it in more detail up to the higher levels.

OK, I just looked through the D&D4 PH. The invisibilities can last longer than 1 round, and I didn't see feats that let a fighter plane shift, teleport, or fly. So you must just be joshing me.

Bullgrit

He's referring to the fact that ritual magic is available to anyone trained in it. To be trained in ritual magic, you must be trained in Arcana, and have the Ritual Magic feat. Wizards are automatically trained in Arcana, and receive Ritual Magic as a bonus feat. A Fighter can spend a feat to train in Arcana and can pick up the Ritual Magic feat. Total cost, 2 feats, 13 intelligence as a prereq. Total value, standard access to all ritual magic.

Thematically, it would be a character with a scholarly knowledge of the rules and rituals of magic, but no particular combat magic aptitude. An engineer, if you will.

Such a character could plane shift (by crafting a portal to another plane), fly (by instilling himself with overland flight), and teleport (by crafting a teleportation circle). He couldn't just zap between planes, launch into the air on a whim, and disappear in an instant and reappear elsewhere. But he could do it with time and planning.

I don't know how germane this whole aspect of the debate really is, but that's what's being referenced.

 

[broghammerj]

As for the whole wizard/cleric can do anything better than the other classes.....why would you? Sure I can be invisible and hide better than the rogue, but I wasn't memorizing invisibility every day because we had a rogue in the party. Same is true for knock. Sure if I want to be an a-hole and steal everyone's thunder than I probably could but I game with friends so I don't.

People must have had a greatly different experience than I did with high level wizards. I remember being completely frustrated with spell resistance.

1. Ok, I cast fireball...It doesn't beat his spell resistance
2. Next round....I cast fireball......Woot beat the resistance.......saved for half.
3. Don't beat the resistance again....etc
4. Rinse and repeat so that only 25% of spells really hit for significant damage. Meanwhile the fighter is kicking arse and taking names every round.

Heck, I played an 18th level psychic from Green Ronin's psychic handbook. I could teleport if I had been to a place before pretty much at will. I could also mindswap with other creatures and take their bodies. That was pretty cool in theory when I tried to change bodies with the Dracolich from Age of Worms. Unfortunately, saves and resistances never worked out. While I was jacking around doing my telepathy gig the fighter wielding the two weapon bastard swords was dealing 70 points of damage per round.

Guess my experience was different. Now if you want to say 3E was broke because everything was either all or none then I'll give you that. As any character could do a lot of damage at high level....I found the save or die effects annoying. Same as the fighter doing 10 points of damage or 90 points of damage per round.

 

[Kishin]

First of all, that's not true. There are AoO

Have fun hitting the dragon for one singular attack at maybe 20-30 HP?

and there are a number of scenarios under which a dragon does not want to incur one (wounding dragonbane weapon, anyone?). The fighter can also ready an action to interpose himself if the dragon does move. If the fighter has to shadow the wizard, he can at least rest assured the dragon must choose each round whether to attack the wizard with cover, or to move and take only a standard action.

Interpose himself? The dragon flies over him. Flying fighter? Flies over/under/past him.

Doesn't take the dragon more than a standard action to grapple the Wizard. Then the party's over.

Second, it's my assumption that many party members will prefer to engage the dragon from a range, in which case, the dragon may choose to breathe or use a spell, facing further harassment from the fighter, or to attack the fighter, forsaking attempts to close.

Or he'll ignore them and squash the mage. None of that is specifically stopping the dragon from doing that. Engaging a dragon at range does not freeze it in place.

Third, the fighter can simply charge or otherwise harry the dragon each round while the wizard maneuvers, again, limiting the dragon to standard actions.

Until the dragon grapples the wizard.

Nothing?

Yes.

Celerity. Dimension Shuffle. Contingency. The list's a mile long.

 

[Victim]

I don't think fighter types were irrelevant at higher levels - I've seen some pretty brutal characters with only casual optimization - but rather they're as relevant as the rest of the group lets them be.

Supported, a well built fighter type can dish out heaps of reliable damage. And, in my experience anyway, providing that support is often a more efficient use of caster resources than direct attacks. Even the full attack restriction can be eased - spells like Tactical Teleport can drop melees into perfect positions for ginsu action, and Pounce type abilities allow full actions while charging.

But even in that case, the character can basically be a weapon aimed by the spellcasters...

The other thing is that the fighting man has to remember that there's flying and invisible stuff. Magic swords and armor are not everything - flight items, potions, etc are important to keep the fighter relevant in a fight. Even if your friends are unselfish, that doesn't mean they'll always be able to provide the countermeasures you need in a fight.

 

[pawsplay]

Have fun hitting the dragon for one singular attack at maybe 20-30 HP?

That depends on the level range we're talking about. For teens, sure... at which point, your AoO has taken out 10% of its entire hit points.

Interpose himself? The dragon flies over him. Flying fighter? Flies over/under/past him.

Sorry, Charlie. If you move, and I use a readied action to get in your way, I can guarantee I'm between you and the wizard.

Doesn't take the dragon more than a standard action to grapple the Wizard. Then the party's over.

Or the fighter beats on the dragon while the wizard uses dimension door to escape.

Or he'll ignore them and squash the mage. None of that is specifically stopping the dragon from doing that. Engaging a dragon at range does not freeze it in place.

I did not say it did. Again, he can choose to squash the mage, but he'll get in only one standard attack. A dragon attacking one person per turn as a standard action is losing the fight.

Celerity. Dimension Shuffle. Contingency. The list's a mile long.

Explain to me how any of those are unbeatable gamestoppers. For a caster of any given level, there is a dragon who can credibly threaten them. Mind you, there are some dirty tricks for dealing with dragons, but none of them guarantee the wizard or anyone else will be entirely safe.

I'm not sure what your point was about the dragon grappling the wizard, unless you were trying to make my argument. If you don't have a fighter, that probably is it for the wizard. But a fighter, especially one with appropriate backup, can keep the heat on the dragon. Sure, the dragon can kill the wizard in two rounds... but is he willing to die to do it?

 

[CubeKnight]

+1 to did have the problem.

In all the campaigns I've been, at higher levels non-casters just can't keep up. Unless casters deliberately gimp themselves, or do something of the sort, they just keep outshining the non-casters time and time again.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

OK, I just looked through the D&D4 PH. The invisibilities can last longer than 1 round, and I didn't see feats that let a fighter plane shift, teleport, or fly. So you must just be joshing me.

Bullgrit

Skill Training (Arcana) -> Ritual Caster.
Missing was the mention of: Tons of gp. But that's the same for the Wizard.

 

[Nymrohd]

Well I did not have a pure fighter in my game but our Jhimari Peacekeaper triton was more melee than caster and he was never overshadowed (until Dagon ate him . . .). And I think the reason was simple. He could move anywhere the monsters could because they were all underwater, and he had decent ranged options. A normal fighter can also have these as long as he gets the proper buffs or wondrous items. There are protective measures for almost everything in 3.5 but there are also countermeasures.
The main problem is that as in all games of the genre, the optimised character can dominate the battlefield to the expense of the average character. And with the wealth of options in 3.5 in a system that did not inherently support balance on its basic structure (like 4E does), it was inevitable that some players would be able to break the system. And the classes with the most options (primary spellcasters) would be the most likely candidates for optimization. If all your players frequented the CharOP boards, then your party would probably be balanced and could have a fighter (or at least someone with a few levels of fighter and a melee build).