First Edition feel with 4E rules

[Lanefan]

Isn't that the exact same question as the post you linked to?

It's the reverse question.

The other thread is about making 1e feel like 4e.
This one is about making 4e feel like 1e.

I think this one is easier to answer, and to do.

To make 4e play like 1e, at least to some extent:

As a DM:
- reduce starting PC hit points by quite a lot
- randomize a lot of things (e.g. hit point rolls)
- tell the players straight up to ignore the magic item table in the 4ePH, and design your own instead that the players never see
- give minions a few more hit points
- give higher level monsters a lot fewer hit points
- rework spells so they function more like their 1e equivalents
- use minis if you like but ditch the grid - no more pixellated fireballs
- make resource management relevant - at-wills can only be done every so often unless they're a natural action like swinging a weapon, treat dailies and encounter powers more like 1e spells, and so forth
- greatly reduce available healing surges
- make an extended rest only give you back a set percentage of your total h.p. (10%? 25%? up to you...) rather than all of them
- set the tone early - put lots of traps and secret doors/hideaways in your first few adventures and make your players slow down and search
- don't use battlemaps, they reveal too much too soon
- never allow a die roll to replace any action that can instead be described and-or roleplayed
- allow players to play multiple PCs, henches, etc.
- be prepared for an adventure to take several sessions to complete
- and for gawd's sake put "mule" in the available equipment list!

As a player:
- be prepared to sweat the details e.g. count your arrows, track your rations, search everything, etc.
- play in the spirit of 1e - describe your actions, search for secrets, engage the dungeon with your described actions and the NPCs with your roleplay rather than rolling a skill challenge
- don't get too attached to your character(s), for they might not be around for long.

OK, that's nowhere near perfect, but it's a start...

Lan-"I'm still not sure this is gonna work"-efan

 

[clip]

You don't have one lone wandering monster, you have an encounter with some wandering monsters. I had a very exciting session in Thunderspire Labyrinth based on the party trying to get back to civilization plagued by wandering monsters.



It's supposed to do two things: make those encounters where you only lose a couple of healing surges have some influence in the rest of the game, and force the PCs to take some downtime. I think that it's not a bad approximation of the Cleric's healing capacity, as well as the full week you need to rest after being dropped to less than 0 HP.

I do understand what you're aiming for - but does this not simply extend the rest periods that the party does take, and reduce the capacity for big fights? I fully accept that if the campaign is centered around a kind of "struggling" theme with the party having to pick its fights carefully and manage surges as though they were fuel - then I get it. On the other hand, I don't recall 1e games ever being like that. If anything, they quite closely resembled the 4e mechanic:

The party would start off strong, and get into a series of fights. The cleric would heal the party as and when, and across a "day" they would slowly deteriorate until the cleric ran out of healing spells. At this point, the party would be forced to seek refuge until the cleric could rest up. The only difference being that the limiting factor was the cleric, rather than the total number of healing surges.

 

[Aurumvorax]

I do understand what you're aiming for - but does this not simply extend the rest periods that the party does take, and reduce the capacity for big fights? I fully accept that if the campaign is centered around a kind of "struggling" theme with the party having to pick its fights carefully and manage surges as though they were fuel - then I get it. On the other hand, I don't recall 1e games ever being like that. If anything, they quite closely resembled the 4e mechanic:

The party would start off strong, and get into a series of fights. The cleric would heal the party as and when, and across a "day" they would slowly deteriorate until the cleric ran out of healing spells. At this point, the party would be forced to seek refuge until the cleric could rest up. The only difference being that the limiting factor was the cleric, rather than the total number of healing surges.

You weren't limited by the cleric because you had magical options for healing. 4e ironically enforces the 10-minute day more than any other edition because once you run out of surges there's very very very very few options for healing left. A healing potion is absolutely worthless in 4e because, if you have even the most unoptimized leader in your party he's infinitely better than wasting a surge on chugging a potion.

A level 1 cleric with 14 constitution can either heal 6 points on a healing surge, 6 + 1d6 on healing word, or 10 hit points by chugging a 50gp potion. By level 2 the potion becomes completely worthless when healing word is 7 + 1d6 (average of 10.5). A party who isn't comfortable continuing can back out and take an extended rest to become 100% recharged. This leads into another difference between 4e design and 1e design:

Monsters won't stick around if you're picking them off. If you submitted to Gygax's ideas of dungeon ecology (and this man broke down the food chain from fungus to dragons) he explains in every module he writes about how monsters, once reduced to 50% or so or faced with an obviously superior force, will setup a few traps and simply pack up their treasure and leave. In Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, the giants will trail the party to their camp and then amass a brutal attack (and there's like a 100 monsters in that module including hill/stone/cloud giants, ogres, orcs, and animals).

I can see this going over well for 4e players.

DM: You return to the dungeon from your extended rest. It's empty save a few loose coins scattered about.

Players: WTF?! We were only gone 24 hours.

DM: Exactly.

Players: Do we find any treasure?

DM: No, and you failed your plot hooks and major quests. Want to head back into town to find another adventure?

Lanefan kind of proves my point regarding a game and its style. If you have a laundry list of features that need changing which are longer than the rule books for a similar game, why don't you just switch over? The time it takes to make these changes and test play them would be better spent on finding another RPG and people, there's a lot of great and undiscovered games out there.

 

[Doug McCrae]

A healing potion is absolutely worthless in 4e because, if you have even the most unoptimized leader in your party he's infinitely better than wasting a surge on chugging a potion.

A level 1 cleric with 14 constitution can either heal 6 points on a healing surge, 6 + 1d6 on healing word, or 10 hit points by chugging a 50gp potion. By level 2 the potion becomes completely worthless when healing word is 7 + 1d6 (average of 10.5).

I think 4e's healing potions are amazingly good. They're for winning the Big Fight, level + 5 encounters and the like, as you can use as many in an encounter as you have healing surges, and potions. Last session in my game one player used two potions (I think, might've been one) in a level + 3 encounter. With enough healing potions, and surges left, it's very hard for the PCs to lose a single encounter. Money resource management is very much a feature of 4e, whereas it isn't in 1e and 2e.

You're right that the leader's healing/inspiring word is better, but there's a limit of two per encounter. Healing Word PLUS Potion is better than Healing Word. You are also right that looking at healing in the longer term where one wants to get the most hit points possible out of each individual surge, Word > Potion.

Because gold management is a distinctive feature of d20 D&D but not earlier editions it would be a good idea to ban magic item purchase, even potions, to get more of a 1e feel. Just what you find. This does, then, leave the problem of what to do with gold. One might be forced to houserule training costs back in, or, for a Dragonlance/LotR vibe, forget about monetary treasure altogether.

 

[Doug McCrae]

How could one create a game with the feel of AD&D 1e while still using the 4th edition rule set? Is it even possible?

I assumed that for this challenge we were not allowed to houserule, but I notice that most respondents have.

I think it's too easy if you change 4e's rules. Obviously it's possible to turn one game into another, by degrees, by changing the rules. The real challenge lies in generating a 1e feel, while using all of 4e's rules as is.

A significant part of 1e's feel lies in the 'accessories' rather than the rules - secret doors, ten foot poles, treasure chests, henchmen and hirelings, zoo dungeons, mega-dungeons, wandering monsters, anagram names, non-simulationist clues, terrible poetry. It is often said that the classic modules were the heart of 1e - Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths of the Earth, Tomb of Horrors, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and so on - while 2e's heart is its campaign settings. So it should be possible to get a lot of 1e feel simply by running the old modules, or facsimiles/pastiches thereof if you feel like being creative.

 

[Aurumvorax]

Because gold management is a distinctive feature of d20 D&D but not earlier editions it would be a good idea to ban magic item purchase, even potions, to get more of a 1e feel. Just what you find. This does, then, leave the problem of what to do with gold. One might be forced to houserule training costs back in, or, for a Dragonlance/LotR vibe, forget about monetary treasure altogether.

I thought about banning the sale of magic items and instead forcing characters to use what they find or personally enchant themselves. For a sword and sorcery vibe you could enforce the Conan rule where adventurers throw away at least 50% of their income on partying and fine living. It basically gives the adventurers an excuse to, you know, adventure.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Partially in response to this thread, I wish to ask the assembled ENWorlders this: How could one create a game with the feel of AD&D 1e while still using the 4th edition rule set? Is it even possible?

Don't know whether this is the same thread as the more detailed one on rpg.net, but I'm going to say something like I said over there.

Firstly, which first edition feel? Monty Haul? Dead easy. Just quadruple the treasure parrcels and throw in lots of artifacts. But if you mean that subset of 1e that's often referred to as Old School then I'd simply use MM3/Dark Sun damage expressions and put in two simple house rules.

1: An extended rest requires a lazy weekend back in a town. Overnight rests simply restore two healing surges
Consequence: Combat becomes something to be avoided and thought round because it uses up serious resources. I.e. your daily powers - which are almost irreplacable. If you use it you may not have it when you need. (This is actually an improvement on the 1e method because it doesn't just penalise the spellcasters).

2: Divide monster Exps by 4. Attach experience points to the treasure parcels in the adventure so that the expected exps for getting the parcels make up three times the monster experience.
Consequence: Fighting monsters isn't rewarding. Getting treasure is. So they will think their way round any monsters rather than fight them if at all possible. (This was the purpose of the 1 xp per gp given in the 1e rules, which worked on about this 3:1 ratio).

This combination gives you a game about sneaky bastards who would rather not fight but can really bring it if they need to. What it misses is the immediacy of Save or Die deaths and one shot kills, but introduces the climactic combats of 4e in their place (so whenever you go for combat it's BIG). Then focus on details and use old 1e modules for design.

Edit: If you take this approach, be prepared for certain classes (Rogues - 6 skills, Monks - Fly, Bards - incredibly versatile skills, Shamans - Spirits Guidance, Essentials Assassins - 5 skills, tactical poisons) to shoot right to the top of the power curve

Edit 2: You'll also miss the bringing along a crowd of henchmen/hirelings, half a dozen wardogs, etc. to help that was done by some groups. Unless the helpers are minions (unless they survive) the combats will get far too big if you take this approach. And if they are they will drop like flies in combat with anything real unless you promote the lucky ones to PC status as replacements. Come to think of it, this simply adds to the theme I think.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't think the "feel" of 1st edition will ever be recaptured by a rpg. When I first got my AD&D PHB and DMG, back in '77, it was like a whole new world was opened up for me.

You got your PHB & DMG in 77 eh?

Time traveller exposed.

Don't use skill challenges.

I don't and the campaign still runs fine.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don´t really know if it is mentioned, and I don´t know first edition, but you can start with not following guidelines for treasure and using magic items right out of your ADnD 2nd edition book...

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don´t really know if it is mentioned, and I don´t know first edition, but you can start with not following guidelines for treasure and using magic items right out of your ADnD 2nd edition book...

ADnD 2nd edition book? For "the feel of AD&D 1e" Are you mad?

Seriously, one of the big things about 2e was changing the feel of AD&D away from 1e.