D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[NotActuallyTim]

Right, it's not that sensible a plot device, but who cares?

I mean, the imaginary afterlives of the imaginary people I'm pretending to be doesn't really bother me that much when I'm playing, creating characters or making adventures. For all I care the characters can all be tossed in a big trash can when I'm through with them. Games over.

 

[Irennan]

In FR Polytheistic deities force everyone to be Monotheists, holding only one deity as patron - it's the exact opposite of real polytheism where you need/should worship EVERY deity at the appropriate times.

In FR everyone worships many deities, praying to them in the appropriate circumstances. People might have preferences, sure, but only rare individuals choose a single deity and ignore the rest. For a source, this is explicitly stated in the ''Elminster's FR'' book, and several times by Ed Greenwood himself over Candlekeep.

As for the Wall, I immensely dislike the concept, for obvious reasons, but it was created by Myrkul (AFAIK) and, given his nature, it's not really a surprise. I'm baffled that Kelemvor chose to keep such a cruel and twisted thing, though...

 

[Delazar]

I don't think that the lore is implying that, unless you specifically serve a god, you cannot go to a "proper" afterlife. I remember a passage from one of the Drizzt books, where he pondered about his way of life, and his beliefs, and he realized that he'd been a "follower" of Mielikki all his life, though he didn't even know that Mielikki existed.

I think the Wall is for those that completely deny the gods, or their existence (which is foolishness in a place where the gods walked the very earth)

what i'm saying is, if you lived your life being an hero, helping the downtrotten, and defeating evil, I'm pretty sure that Kelemvor will look at your soul and say "you belong to Mount Celestia, son". Maybe not in Tyr's hall, but probably as a petitioner in some nice village by the sea.

 

[paintphob]

In FR Polytheistic deities force everyone to be Monotheists, holding only one deity as patron - it's the exact opposite of real polytheism where you need/should worship EVERY deity at the appropriate times.

That is not correct, it is polytheistic. The SCAG covers this on pages 19-20, under Forms of Worship. The first sentence of the second paragraph states "In addition, people regularly venerate gods based on their needs and circumstances:..." It goes on to give examples of this.

 

[JohnLynch]

I wasn't saying they were the same, just that there's plenty of mythical precedent for the gods being real rectal-orifices to people who don't worship them, or don't worship them "properly."

Are there (m)any Olympians we would identify with as neutral good or lawful good though? Zeus had a habit of transforming into animals, kidnapping women and then having sex with them (dunno if he made sure he got consent though). He isn't exactly what I'd call good aligned and he led the whole lot of the gods.

Of course, we tend to have idiolised gods in D&D (at least some of them) rather than the awful gods we get when we read mythology.

I can just imagine something like this inspiring the Wall of the Faithless:

DM: Alright everyone, let's have a look at your characters. Yup, all lookds good. This one looks good. This one's fine, except Greg you forgot to put down a patron god.

Greg: Craetous doesn't worship a god. He finds them all to be overgrown spoiled brats and doesn't believe any of them are worthy of his worship.

Lucy: Here we go again.

DM: Dude. Come on. We're just trying to have fun in a fantasy medieval world. Just pick a god.

Greg: The gods offend my sensibilities. My character shouldn't have to worship imaginary beings just so I can play this game.

DM: Greg we're all just trying to have fun here. Do you really have to bring in your real world politics into every single game?

Lucy: Yeah, come on Greg. I'm a Christian and I'm not meant to worship false idols and Mark is an athiest and actively finds all organised religion to be offensive. We both put aside our real life beliefs though because it's just a game we're trying to have fun with.

Greg: Nope. I envisioned Craetous as a character who doesn't worship any of the gods. It's an integral part of his character.

DM: But it's an integral part of EVERY character you play. For crying out loud we just want to have fun.

Greg: Don't care. I'm not changing.

DM: You know what? Fine. But when Craetous dies he's going to go to Kelemvor's domain and when it's found out he refused to believe in any of the gods he's going to get stuck in the Wall of the Faithless along with all your past characters unless you pick a damn patron deity!

I've gamed with people who disliked gods and weren't comfortable playing divine characters. I'd rather not make something that would make players uncomfortable IRL a part of the in-game cosmology. Hence why it doesn't exist in My Realms.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

As I mentioned in another thread, I had a player do just what John described above, but without any snark or inter-party fighting.

There's nothing wrong with a player making that choice, provided they roleplay the character appropriately and are advised of possible negative outcomes at the start of the campaign.

In my experience, the way the Realms' afterlife functions does one thing no other campaign setting does: allow for a character to continue roleplaying after he or she dies.

Some gamers don't like like the concept of the Wall of Faithless for a variety of reasons, which is fine. Me? I see it for what it is: an opportunity, not a problem.

 

[Irennan]

As I mentioned in another thread, I had a player do just what John described above, but without any snark or inter-party fighting.

There's nothing wrong with a player making that choice, provided they roleplay the character appropriately and are advised of possible negative outcomes at the start of the campaign.

In my experience, the way the Realms' afterlife functions does one thing no other campaign setting does: allow for a character to continue roleplaying after he or she dies.

Some gamers don't like like the concept of the Wall of Faithless for a variety of reasons, which is fine. Me? I see it for what it is: an opportunity, not a problem.

If a character got stuck in a wall and dissolved into nothingness, what kind of RP or opportunity would there be (for that character)? For them, it'd be over. Unless you wanted to run a campaign where the PCs went on a crusade to destroy the wall, or free their former companion from the wall (like it happens in NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer), but the character itself wouldn't be able to do much.

 

[Huntsman57]

I thought Kelemvor tore down that wall. Is my memory faulty? It's been awhile.

 

[Celtavian]

It fits with the idea of religion. In a world where there are real deities, why would there be a place for the dead that don't believe? The Wall of the Faithless was how the FR inserted the idea of damnation for the nonbeliever in a world where they had no place because the gods were "real." I was glad they implemented. I don't like the modern version of D&D where a player can choose to follow a philosophy and still gain power. It goes against the ideas that the polytheistic religions of D&D were built on. What is the point of even having D&D if everyone can be their own god in essence by worshipping whatever philosophy or force they feel like and gain power. If that were possible, gods would not even need to exist.

If you want a world with polytheistic religions based on ancient human ideas of polytheism, then you need constructs like the Wall of the Faithless to punish the nonbeliever.

Of course if you don't a world with religions, then run it your way. I find a world filled with gods with no punishment or penalty for nonbelief pointless and completely against everything we know of real world religions. It lacks verisimilitude and makes religion a pointless construct in the fantasy realm.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

At the point of death a character's spirit is not automatically interred in the Wall.

As you (Irennan) know, there is a process involved: the character arrives outside the City of the Dead, along with other souls. Devils may appear, and they'll try to convince the souls of the formerly powerful to join them in Hell. The representatives of the gods will arrive in all their glory to collect the souls destined to an eternity in the Outer Planes. The remainder will be drawn to the City (or rounded up, I can't quite remember), where eventually they will face judgement.

If I recall correctly, there is a Realms novel that depicts all of this. That memory is what I used when I ran my campaign with the faithless PC.

There's half a hundred roleplaying opportunities to be had from start to finish, and plenty of time for still-living PCs to try and work a miracle of their own.