Forked Thread: Logan Bonner has some Questions....

[Crothian]

1. What types of game do you run?

It depends on the game being run and the players. Right now in the D&D ghame I'm running the players have expressed supriuse to realize they are the heroes of the story and playing herioically. Usually, the games tended to be more like the Keystone Cops then Lord of the Rings.


2. What is the overarching goal of your game? What feel do you want and what experience should your players have?

The final goal is fun with friends. Telling a story is nice when we stumble into it as is theme exploration. Feel and experience depend on the game, but usually it is light hearted fun.

3. Most importantly, what steps do you take to change the way the game plays, and in what way do they contribute to your goal?

We change the game to fit us. We will add or subtract rules, edit descriptions, whatever it takes.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

I'm curious how those of you who don't agree with the way the games are run approach your own games. "I don't agree with this" and "This isn't how I like my games" is too vague if you don't talk about what you like in games, so here are some questions:

1. What types of game do you run?

2. What is the overarching goal of your game? What feel do you want and what experience should your players have?

3. Most importantly, what steps do you take to change the way the game plays, and in what way do they contribute to your goal?

1. Campaigns range from a year to several years. In D&D, they're mid-magic, equal mix of combat and roleplay. Plenty of story hooks for the characters of each and every player at the table. Very little table talk/off-topic talk. The characters usually have too much to do, and the players sometimes feel like their characters don't get a chance to rest because the world goes on without them, whether they rest for a week or not.

2. The goal is fun, as everyone else has said. I think a difference between those of us responding in this thread* and those of you playing in the WotC offices may be that fun, for us, is much more difficult to come by if the game world doesn't make sense. That's "sense" as we define it, of course. For example, I know it's been harped to death, but that 1-2-1-2 vs. 1-1-1-1 diagonal movement thing? That really, honestly, deep in my core bothers me. I'm a physics teacher. So I am probably in the minority with how much it bugs me. Probably it doesn't bother most other people as much. But to me, that right there, among other things means that the game world doesn't make sense to me.

If you're trying to wrap your head around where I'm coming from, maybe just try to imagine playing a game where the rules call one direction "up." But this "up" doesn't mean vertically away from the ground, it means at a 30-degree angle from the sun, even if it's night time. That's how annoying the 1-1-1-1 movement, and similar things, are to me. Shrug. It doesn't bother other people, I suppose I'm just trying to show how little things can change the whole idea of "fun" for different people. But that's what we're looking for out of our game. That is the experience we want: fun.

As for the feel, I want a fast-paced, exciting, consistent feel to the game. Consistency is a point that I don't see emphasized enough in DM advice.

3. We make very few changes to the rules. We simply ignore the rules that make no sense (you can't grapple a beetle swarm). And we use our judgment with DCs for skill checks/skill challenges based on objectivity rather than a subjective scaling of DC with level.

*Not that I am speaking for them. Don't mean to put words in their mouths. Just guesswork here.

 

[The_Gneech]

This comment reminds me: How many of you use quest rewards? Do you do it as presented in the DMG and, if not, how do you alter them?

I give out "story XP" from time to time when the characters have accomplished some goal or notable feat; I don't have a real codified system for doing so, usually just equal to the XP they'd get from an EL-even encounter.

Again, not 4E of course, so I don't know if it's helpful.

-The Gneech

 

[Fallen Seraph]

1. What types of game do you run?

Well obviously this is oriented toward D&D games. So as such, the kind of D&D game I run, I would say be; "narrative-driven-loose-story-based-campaign", essentially we run narrative based games with a central story (so there will be set-pieces, set-NPCs, etc.), but the way the PCs go about doing so is loose.

2. What is the overarching goal of your game? What feel do you want and what experience should your players have?

The overarching goal is to have fun. Our fun is based around playing through a story and roleplaying the characters. I feel and my players feel that our experiences should be all based around becoming engrossed in the story.

3. Most importantly, what steps do you take to change the way the game plays, and in what way do they contribute to your goal?

Umm, probably our most important steps in how the game plays is we are very rules light. We don't nit-pick stuff, we simply run with what is most fun. Our houserules:

• Powers can be separated into different segments, ie: a Power that does a couple different effects can do just one of them if you wish
• Things such as pg. 42, Acrobatics, Skill Challenges, etc. can happen within a Power.
• Encounter and Daily is replaced with Scene and Chapter. Basically a Scene would be a Dungeon, a Chapter be a Quest.
• We use different Skill Challenges all the time. We aren't that rule-oriented with it, so don't use specific math for it.

Basically most of it is just oriented towards simply having fun and not worrying about the rules (luckily very easy in 4e).

This comment reminds me: How many of you use quest rewards? Do you do it as presented in the DMG and, if not, how do you alter them?

I semi use Quest Rewards in a way. We have Major and Minor Milestones.

A Major Milestones is when a character experiences a truly major event, ie: if Rob from OoTS completes his pledge that be a Major Milestone, you automatically gain a level.

A Minor Milestone is more like a Quest Reward since a completion of a Quest is likely to cause a Minor Milestone. A Minor Milestone is activated when a somewhat important (less then a Major) event happens, you gain from that all the XP from everything since last Minor. Obviously going up a level if you get enough.

 

[Cadfan]

This comment reminds me: How many of you use quest rewards? Do you do it as presented in the DMG and, if not, how do you alter them?

I find in some of the games I'm in, we forget to keep track of them, I think because it was a new thing and we still aren't used to thinking about it. Not getting quest XP can slow advancement, and it's easier to keep track of what our goals (at least our initial goals) were when we use quests.

I don't use them unless a particular encounter or plotline didn't involve much fighting. I find that the PCs level fast enough as is.

 

[DeusExMachina]

1: I'd describe my games as plot driven action adventures. I like action and I like it to be frantic and tense, but without a good plot, it's just so much nonsense. Having a well developed character is important, but so is levelling it and seeing it grow in stats/powers, so you can feel the satisfaction of becoming something more than you were at the start of the campaign.
The campaigns are maybe not very freeform/sandboxy, but a good narrative is more important to me than having all the options in the world. Also my group seems fine just getting a few choices during a session instead of filling it completely their own plot ideas...

2: The goal is to cooperatively create a memorable storyline. Sure, as DM I create most of the story, but the players have their important parts to do. In the end I want to look back abnd see how the players got intrigued by what was going on, had their characters get involved in the storylines and with the npc's leading to a climax ina story that will be remembered for long after we stop the campaign.
Having fun is obviously the major goal, but then again fun is pretty much the goal of most hobbies, so it seems kind of obvious. The above is what I think makes this hobby fun in particular...

3: I will create a homebrew campaign setting every single time. They work better for the narrative when I can create everything from scratch. In order to give a setting the right flavor and atmosphere I will often limit certain races and classes and create new ones. I usually set up some kind of starting point for the story (they are all members of a special forces squad in the army / they are all from the same isolated underground town and entereing the world for the first time, etc). Then during the sessions, I try to give the players hooks that combine my narrative with their backgrounds and/or character qualities and have them interact to make sure everybody gets his place in the story...


I definitely give out quest xp. I think it stimulates solving quests beyond kicking everybody's ass, it stimulates engaging with the world and it allows me to level characters without having to do combat almost nonstop...

 

[Logan_Bonner]

Not as such as you may be thinking, don't recall exactly how it is presented in the DMG.

Quests have always been the thing that moves the players from one activity or adventure to the next. Never really had players want to just go find something unless it was spell components or side-quests for the story, or just randomly explore the world.

Quests are exactly not CRPG-style fetch quests. They're directly related to the story arc of the adventure or the goals of the PCs. Most of your quests can emerge organically from the goals the PCs set for themselves. Here's what the DMG has to say:

"Often, minor quests matter primarily to a particular character or perhaps a subset of the party. Such quests might be related to a character's background, a player goal, or the ongoing events in the campaign relevant to one or more characters."

You're not going to see "Slay 50 wolves" on the lists of quests.

We don't use them because we don't need them. The players are so used to coming up with goals for their characters on their own and they are rewarded enough with the story line that additional bribery never seemed needed.

Well, if your players are already coming up with goals for their characters, you're most of the way there! It's just a matter of rewarding those so the PCs aren't losing out on experience, or giving them extra XP in some other way so they don't fall behind.

 

[DeusExMachina]

You're not going to see "Slay 50 wolves" on the lists of quests.

And even in crpg's those are the bad uninteresting kind of quests, although sadly all too common...

Anyway, the quests I give xp for are stuff like finding the cure for a disease that is destroying all the crops around the village, help out the nearby town that is under attacks from ghouls every night, etc...

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

This comment reminds me: How many of you use quest rewards? Do you do it as presented in the DMG and, if not, how do you alter them?

I find in some of the games I'm in, we forget to keep track of them, I think because it was a new thing and we still aren't used to thinking about it. Not getting quest XP can slow advancement, and it's easier to keep track of what our goals (at least our initial goals) were when we use quests.

Excellent question!

In my campaign, there are definitely secondary plothooks that are presented along the way that players can either nibble or bite on. If they pursue them, there are mini-XP rewards given along each step of the sidetrek. I don't openly advertise that they reward XP, but once they indicate they want to pursue it I let them know that they can earn a bit of extra XP if they complete the task successfully.

We haven't quite moved towards using index cards for this yet, but I always make certain that the players understand that exploring their world has a definite XP award if they so choose to pursue them. This ranges from settling quarrels between merchants, to reporting criminal activity to the constable, to discovering new parts of the city when they're on a mission (ala MMOGs), capturing thieves uninjured for a bounty, speak on the behalf of swillhouse owners to collect a tab from a rude patron, burying the dead along the roadside and giving proper rites and even mundane tasks such as giving alms to the needy, playing messenger for city guards and even helping put out fires in the city.

Basically, I rewards good roleplay with quest XP, so long as a task can be set or devised for the scenario.

 

[GlaziusF]

A Type Of Game

The first and thus far only game I'm running with 4E is being run using the mysterious "Internet", with a bunch of friends using GameTable for a battlemat, Skype for table talk, and IRC as a final place to pose actions and effects. The game runs weekly.

A Goal For A Game

The game is an explicit takeoff of the Mysterious Dungeon genre of RPGs. They're also called "roguelikes" and that's a fair starting point, but some Mysterious Dungeon games have many interstitial towns and they're all built with the assumption and in some cases the expectation that people will die before the end and have to restart. On subsequent playthroughs different plot events happen, and sometimes people can prevent some of the items they pick up from being lost on death. Anyway, the way I decided to model this all is with the story of "Avandra's Path".

The goddess Avandra was once a real person, and the course of her life still remains in the world, charged with divine power. At important places in her life, or places where she spent a long time, are "oases of peace", where the words of devils and demons cannot hold sway. The path itself shifts randomly, to throw the wicked into confusion, and it's rumored that if you walk it and Avandra is merciful to you, you will find whatever you truly seek. It's also rumored that at the very end are the material wealth and power that Avandra discarded to take the last step into the Silver Sea to join the gods. Certainly, from the Shrine of Avandra's Birth, there shines on a distant mountaintop a mysterious rainbow gleam, promising nothing and everything.

I want my players to feel like big damn heroes, so they are explicitly going places that no one might go again for hundreds of years, finding lost things and interesting new developments in equal measure. I also want them to have goals to accomplish, which is why I asked them what they were looking for when they stepped onto the path. By the time they hit paragon tier they'll have found it, but that will only be the beginning of their journey.

What I Changed

Oh, lots of things. In case it wasn't apparent I'm rolling up random dungeons to create "floors" of about five encounters each, with extended rests only possible in between. Initially it's because the players are following Avandra's River, which carries anyone who falls on the path back to the shrine to be reborn, and it's got some protective powers but occasionally vanishes into the earth and they have to find the other end. But I think at paragon tier they'll depart from that and use a variant on the exodus knife to move between "floors". Every 4 floors is a "dungeon town" where they can buy supplies and advance their personal story through sidesessions in just IRC - and on complaints from the paladin's player I'm going to allow them to sidesession during the extended rests as well. There's not a lot of meat for a paladin of love to get hooks into with just combat and the occasional skill challenge.

I tweak the random dungeon generation rules, obviously to first make only one set of entrance and exit stairs, but also to generate a dungeon in hex tiles instead of squares, and also to not put a dragon on every floor. I take "dragon's den" to be the "boss goes here" sign and put an elite in the next encounter I roll up. If it's "dragon's den" again then a solo gets in.

Major quests take a couple encounters to discover the story of Avandra's life and pick up a relic of her passing; minor quests are small problems a town has that can be resolved by walking the path. Personal quests also count as 1 minor quest for the whole party when they're advanced.

I don't place loot explicitly - I have a system that uses skill checks and player descriptions to distribute the same number of parcels, but chosen randomly, and with some extra little self-designed bennies to make up for not being able to extended-rest more than once every 5 encounters.

Obviously I use the tweaking system in the DMG to make elites out of normal monsters, but I've made several other not-strictly-covered tweaks as well to advance player stories. The starlock eventually wants to sail the sea of stars, so when I dropped a crashed ship which resembles one you might find in a scenario rhyming with "bellslammer" into the middle of the forest, I modified some stormclaw scorpions to deal radiant damage with their claws and psychic damage with their poison, because the kobolds were feeding them from a crate in the hold that had been contaminated with stardust. The ranger is off on something that rhymes with "gyro chest" to bring the rain to his nomadic village, so I created alternate mythic personas for the entire party and we had a fight that was telling part 1 of the story of How Strong Legs Tamed The Storm, where Strong Legs hunts down the Six Prey who are also being quarried by Storm's Wolf, Lightning, and we all posed in IRC in the third-person past tense. It may have mechanically resembled a fight with six heavy warhorses who ran around a lot, and a lightning hazard, but it felt very different.

Also I'm rewarding my players for their minor quests not with treasure or magical items, but with a flavor upgrade for one piece of gear based on the story - a little minor enchantment that does something cool. The ranger, for example, is going to get as a result a +1 subtle scimitar of hunting lightning, which when he is adjacent to only one enemy makes a Dex vs. Reflex followup that deals 1d6 lightning damage per tier. (When he completes the second part, How Strong Legs Broke Storm's Steed, Thunder, his other scimitar will be called of charging thunder and do 1d6 damage per tier but only if that's less than or equal to once/twice/thrice the number of squares he moved that turn.)