From Bespoke to Universal: Let's Talk About TTRPG Systems and Themes

[Thomas Shey]

I thought about this a bit while showering tonight, and I managed to get my thoughts organized on how I feel about it. At first I had a really extended analogy, but I decided to only take up a large space in my post instead of a huge one.

First, this is my view of the subject. I don't expect everyone to agree with it. In fact, part of my view is based on the fact some people don't agree with it.

To me, game systems tend to have two major components. I'll call these the "handle" and the "working surface". These are analogous to the handle and the head on any other tool--the part that allows the manipulation and the part that actually gets the work done.

Really dedicated systems have very carefully crafted handles and working surfaces. If they land proper for you, they will do the specific purposes they serve better than any other tool you could have. An example I'd give of this is Monsterhearts.

But of course there's some limitations intrinsic to this. It requires that the handle suits you, and the working surface has to be covering the ground you want covered. There's no assurance this will be the case for everyone in either case. There's no real reason it should, of course. That's no criticism of the design, its just a case of not serving all the needs of some users.

At the other end of the design space, you have generic systems. They usually either have a deliberately versatile working surface, multiple attached surfaces, or both. What they do have, however is a singular handle. There may be some attachments designed to make the handle a bit more versatile, but its still fundamentally the same handle. They are unlikely to be able to do everything the dedicated system does--but they'll likely cover some ground that no extent system, dedicated or not already does, and may well cover some better than some dedicated ones do for some users by nature of the handle. An example I'd give here is The Hero System.

In the middle are systems with a particular design. Like the previous case, they'll probably have a specific handle, but probably not one designed for as broad a use. They'll also have a head design that's probably got a broad but still kind of specific head, with perhaps some flanges and parts intended for specific sub-purposes. Its more broad in its function than the dedicated head, but isn't really designed for an extremely specific experience; as such its functionality is broader but probably not as well focused on any one thing. Because people will get used to it, they'll probably try and use it for things it really wasn't designed for, and the working surface isn't likely to particularly well serve overall. Maybe they'll end up producing an adapter for the working surface to adapt it a bit better to other purposes, but at the end there's going to be limits because of the underlaying working area. But it may seem still worthwhile because of the familiarity of the userbase with the handle. An example I'd give of this is D&D 5e.

There is, of course a spectrum here; there are games that are more dedicated than D&D, but not as much so as something like Monsterhearts; the are generalized systems that are still mostly aimed at, say, a given genre. But these three cases I think pretty much present the main cases, and at least imply why some people prefer some over others.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Interesting. When I feel my archetypes are outclassed, I tend to make those the new standard.

Exactly! Steal and upgrade! Keep doing it! Don't stop just because you get older! Friendship ended with Yojimbo - Blue Eyes Samurai is my new friend! (not really but you get what I mean)

I feel like some people though, they set their archetypes as a kid, and when, as an adult, those archetypes inevitably get exceed by more modern characters, they have difficulty handling it.

I honestly think this explains a lot of the weird hostility to a lot of modern characters who absolutely don't warrant any significant level of hostility. It's also why a whole generation of Gen X people (and I guess some elder Millennials, i.e. people my or my friend's age) got so hilariously upset about Luke Skywalker not just like, striding into the new movies and sorting everything out personally. That's 100% what they wanted (it was even kind of the script of the Trevorrow movie, albeit weirdly that was somehow LESS insulting to TLJ than the brain Abrams drivel we got, astonishing given how bad of a writer Trevorrow is).

 

[overgeeked]

When thinking about running a game my first thought is “do I absolutely need something more detailed than a few paragraphs or a single page of rules?” And 99 times out of 100 the answer is no. For those 1 in 100 times, I might need a second page of rules.

Generic, universal rules that cover the basics are all you need to run or play a game. Whether it’s a one shot or a decades-long campaign.

Buying, reading, and learning vast crunchy systems for every slight variation on a theme is, I think, a waste of time and money. I love seeing new bits of systems that can be pulled out, simplified, and applied generically wherever or whenever needed.

 

[overgeeked]

I agree that most universal systems are only universal within their gamespace. Which is fine if you really like that gamespace and want to put different "skins" on it, or experience it in different genres. Just don't pretend that the system can actually do another gamespace just as well.

For example, I really enjoy the hyper-competent, hyper-dramatic characters that Fate tends to churn out and I'm happy to play that style in almost any genre, be it supers, steampunk, fantasy, modern-day spies, etc. I go in know I'm going to get "Fate, and you're spies" (or whatever) in the same way I'd go into a D&D game set in ancient Greece where it's "D&D, and we using the Greek mythology monster palette".

But I wanted to play a game set in ancient Greece where what matters is my attention to the concerns of the gods and we focus in on my virtues (rather than kill-monsters-take-stuff-level-up), then I've acknowledged that need to be a different gamespace from D&D. I need to bein the Agon gamespace or something designed to get me the feel I'm trying to get.

System Matters (tm).

Exactly. System matters because it provides that narrower range of options and explicitly pushes a particular style of play. System provides limits to the imagination and points it in a particular direction. In other words, system provides focus. But, the thing most people miss is that system is not the only way to provide focus.

You see this all the time in live plays where the system is D&D but the play is a magic shop or a deeply dramatic game of character interaction as the focus. Gamers yell at the screen when they see this and wonder why they don't use a specific game that's custom made to provide the experience those players seem to be after. But they miss the forest for the trees. System is not the only way to provide focus.

The referee and players can provide that focus themselves regardless of the system used. As long as the system itself doesn't actively fight against what you're trying to do, or as long as you put in house rules that can get the system out of your way, just about any system can be used to tell just about any kind of story.

If the referee and players make something matter at the table, then it matters. Regardless of the system. For example, you absolutely could play Agon using D&D as long as the referee and players made the concerns of the gods matter...as long as the table makes virtues matter. You don't need mechanical support in a game system to make something matter at your table. If your table focuses on it, then it matters. Look at Critical Role. They're using D&D 5E to tell really deeply RP heavy stories with smatterings of combat between long monologues, dramatic backstory reveals, and shopping trips.

But, that's also why I vastly prefer generic systems to bespoke. Because it's easier to do anything you want with a generic system than a bespoke one. It's also why I prefer rules light or rules ultra-light games to heavier ones, there's less to get out of your way. As mentioned a few times in the thread, having to learn a brand new 300+ page bespoke system for every random game idea you have is just too much. Which is why, I suspect, people bend systems they know into odd shapes to play other types of games and why people just keep playing the same kind of game over and over and over again. Gimme a page or two of rules that can be used for anything and I'm set.

 

[pemerton]

you absolutely could play Agon using D&D as long as the referee and players made the concerns of the gods matter...as long as the table makes virtues matter.

I would find this claim more plausible if actual examples were provided.

I mean, to start with, in Agon 2e it is the players (in particular, the leader player) who interprets the signs of the gods. I suppose that you could port that Agon technique into D&D 5e, but that hardly shows that D&D can do what Agon does out of the box.

Agon is also a competition between players (to be the best hero). I've not seen anyone explain how that would be ported into D&D.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Yeah sorry but I’m gonna call b.s.

This reminds me of all those stories about “we played D&D for 4 hours and never rolled dice while we did complex political intrigue, player led Greek god interpretation, and economic sabotage.”

OK, good for you, but you used the wrong tool for the job. I’m glad you had fun but you did it while crippled.

You can change out a doorknob with a butter knife, but there’s no reason to gimp yourself. Use a screwdriver and a drill.

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah sorry but I’m gonna call b.s.

This reminds me of all those stories about “we played D&D for 4 hours and never rolled dice while we did complex political intrigue, player led Greek god interpretation, and economic sabotage.”

OK, good for you, but you used the wrong tool for the job. I’m glad you had fun but you did it while crippled.

You can change out a doorknob with a butter knife, but there’s no reason to gimp yourself. Use a screwdriver and a drill.

Thank you for proving my point. You don't need a drill to replace a doorknob. Only a screwdriver. You don't have to use heavier tools than the job requires. Most gamers wrongly assume they have to have...need to have...vast, complicated rules to cover wildly niche topics in games. That's not the case. A complete, playable game can be found on a page or two and accomplish all the same stuff a more complicated system would cover. The referee can make a call. The referee can focus game play in specific areas. It happens all the time with no issue. People play light games and FKR games all the time. I get that gamers who enjoy heavier systems find it impossible in theory, but it really does work in practice. There's several thousand hours of Critical Role you can watch to see people playing "with the wrong tool" and it's not hampering them in the slightest.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Thank you for proving my point. You don't need a drill to replace a doorknob. Only a screwdriver. You don't have to use heavier tools than the job requires. Most gamers wrongly assume they have to have...need to have...vast, complicated rules to cover wildly niche topics in games. That's not the case. A complete, playable game can be found on a page or two and accomplish all the same stuff a more complicated system would cover. The referee can make a call. The referee can focus game play in specific areas. It happens all the time with no issue. People play light games and FKR games all the time. I get that gamers who enjoy heavier systems find it impossible in theory, but it really does work in practice. There's several thousand hours of Critical Role you can watch to see people playing "with the wrong tool" and it's not hampering them in the slightest.

You are raking my analogy too far and never did I say you need an over complicated game. Indeed most system matters games are vastly lighter weight than trad games.

Using the wrong system (tool) for the job is POSSIBLE but not ideal.

It won’t prevent you from having fun, but how much more fun or less frustration) could you be having?

If you’re happy with your current game, great. If you’re dissatisfied check any one of the dozens of “system matters” games published in the last 20 years. Most of which are bespoke because by definition, the same “universal” system cannot matter in all cases.

 

[overgeeked]

Using the wrong system (tool) for the job is POSSIBLE but not ideal.

It won’t prevent you from having fun, but how much more fun or less frustration) could you be having?

You don't need to optimize everything. A close-enough game that you already know and can house rule is far easier to actually play than a brand new to you game with hundreds of pages of rules that you have to fumble your way through.

If you’re happy with your current game, great. If you’re dissatisfied check any one of the dozens of “system matters” games published in the last 20 years. Most of which are bespoke because by definition, the same “universal” system cannot matter in all cases.

Yes, I am happy with my FKR and one- or two-page RPGs, thanks. It's the very universal-ness and non-bespoke-ness that makes them so broadly useful and fun.

 

[Joshua Randall]

a brand new to you game with hundreds of pages of rules that you have to fumble your way through.

you keep misrepresenting me in what I assume is a deliberate attempt to tilt at strawmans. Most (but not all) bespoke “system matters” games have far, far fewer rules and lower page count than universal systems. They are, by design, easy to learn and some are in fact optimized for one shots.

In addition the refusal to learn new systems (other than your favorite universal system) stunts your growth as a player and GM.