From Bespoke to Universal: Let's Talk About TTRPG Systems and Themes

[pemerton]

I think the idea that game X is bespoke whole game Y is more general relies on a flawed conceit - that the purpose of a roleplaying games rules is only to represent a type of fiction well.

Well, Mutants and Masterminds can do teen emo sups, but it can also do a variety of other sup stories.

@payn, I think your post rest on what @Campbell called a "flawed conceit", namely, that the job of the RPG is to represent a certain fiction.

I agree with @Campbell, though:

once you actually look beyond the fiction and look at the differences in gameplay you have phenomenally different games that are structured differently, bring players' attention to different parts of the fiction, reward different sorts of play. In terms of play experience, one is not more bespoke than the other. The actual game part could not be more different.

The core loops of play, the things the mechanics reinforce, the focus on the characters' sense of identity and their lack of ability to control their emotions/powers will not be as present. Wherein Mutants and Masterminds a lot more focus on the specifics of their powers will be present. The actual experience of playing is going to differ dramatically.

<snip>

Because they can exhibit similar fictional spaces does not make them substitutes.

I can't comment in any detail on this in relation to Masks vs M&M, although what Campbell says seems highly plausible to me given what I know of each game system.

But I can say that what Campbell says is absolutely true of the play of Burning Wheel compared to any version of D&D that I'm familiar with. I have played BW where a debate between two travelling companions about whether or not one will repair the armour of the other matters - in that it is high stakes in play, it can be resolved in a way that is not predetermined and does not just depend on the two players talking it out, and it feeds through to the game's system for recognising and rewarding significant episodes of play. D&D can't emulate this play, even if it permits a game to include the same fiction.

 

[Campbell]

A full 3 out of 6 Monsterhearts basic moves (Keep Your Cool, Lash Out Physically and Run Away) cover what you would need for action scenes pretty well (and I think cover the sort of dynamics you generally see when facing antagonists in its source material). I do think there's room for peripheral moves and custom moves (including ones specific to a given antagonist) to expand on those sorts of scenes.

I mean all of that doesn't mean a lot if you don't want conflict resolution or antagonists that primarily act through GM moves, but like that's a different discussion.

At the end of the day that's all beside the point that the way strings, your darkest self, the basic moves, the playbooks, conditions and GM Moves allow for this sort of messy snowballing of unexpected feelings, guilt and shame spirals and social leveraging provides a gameplay experience you would not otherwise get. That the alchemy of the game's play process, agenda and mechanics provide an experience that is not easily reproduced (and often unwanted by those who opt for more traditional mechanics).

 

[payn]

@payn, I think your post rest on what @Campbell called a "flawed conceit", namely, that the job of the RPG is to represent a certain fiction.

No, I think it may, but doesn't have to.

 

[Thomas Shey]

A full 3 out of 6 Monsterhearts basic moves (Keep Your Cool, Lash Out Physically and Run Away) cover what you would need for action scenes pretty well (and I think cover the sort of dynamics you generally see when facing antagonists in its source material). I do think there's room for peripheral moves and custom moves (including ones specific to a given antagonist) to expand on those sorts of scenes.

I mean all of that doesn't mean a lot if you don't want conflict resolution or antagonists that primarily act through GM moves, but like that's a different discussion.

Not entirely. To use my own terms, it may not effect the "working surface" but it absolutely does the "handle".

At the end of the day that's all beside the point that the way strings, your darkest self, the basic moves, the playbooks, conditions and GM Moves allow for this sort of messy snowballing of unexpected feelings, guilt and shame spirals and social leveraging provides a gameplay experience you would not otherwise get. That the alchemy of the game's play process, agenda and mechanics provide an experience that is not easily reproduced (and often unwanted by those who opt for more traditional mechanics).

Sure. I actually found Monsterhearts the first PbtA game I looked at that I thought brought something genuinely new to the table of emulating popular fiction types that hadn't been touched before. But informed by reading it, I could use some of the concepts in a non-PbtA to produce a similar effect. Would it do it as well? Perhaps not. But it might also do other things I felt worked well in combination with it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On the other hand, its possible to view more general games as still rewarding some of those same things, just not as strongly. If you disagree, you do, but I do, indeed, think you can get some of the same play-cycle out of the Hero System as Monsterhearts, it'll just require some extra work. As such, there are other questions in play which you'd be wanting to use for the "society of young monsters" game, with it usually leaning to Monsterhearts.

No, I disagree as a general statement. Hero is all about powers and fights. It's an elaborate tactical system that focuses on the tactical effects of powers, primarily adjudicates battles and related kinds of stuff. It's systems and processes of play, how it allocates authority, etc. is all entirely at odds with the premise of Monsterhearts. It isn't even that it won't HELP you with this sort of play, it's going to actually undermine it. In a million play sessions you will never get Monsterhearts out of Hero/Champions, not once.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My point is if I'm aiming at those genres, I want both. The Vampire Diaries and Legacies was not about one or the other.

If I want the Porsche experience I don't go drive a caddy. Sure I can race around in that caddy and the sucker will do 140mph without breaking a sweat, but it's STILL NOT A PORSCHE. Each game may have it's advantages and fans, but it's utterly futile to try to drive a caddy like a Porsche, the results will be disappointing and probably messy.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not entirely. To use my own terms, it may not effect the "working surface" but it absolutely does the "handle".



Sure. I actually found Monsterhearts the first PbtA game I looked at that I thought brought something genuinely new to the table of emulating popular fiction types that hadn't been touched before. But informed by reading it, I could use some of the concepts in a non-PbtA to produce a similar effect. Would it do it as well? Perhaps not. But it might also do other things I felt worked well in combination with it.

Right, so think of Hero, you can describe your PCs as a bunch of teens and the players can RP some teen romance if they wish. You won't get the sort of messy spiraling cycle of attraction, rejection, acting out, and the experience of being out of control. You WILL get GM constructed conflict with villains, detailed combat, elaborate powers and a fairly well developed harm system.

 

[Thomas Shey]

No, I disagree as a general statement.

Then there's not much point in my continuing to discuss the subject with you.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Right, so think of Hero, you can describe your PCs as a bunch of teens and the players can RP some teen romance if they wish. You won't get the sort of messy spiraling cycle of attraction, rejection, acting out, and the experience of being out of control. You WILL get GM constructed conflict with villains, detailed combat, elaborate powers and a fairly well developed harm system.

Sure you will. You seem to think somehow its impossible to add additional mechanics or repurpose extent mechanics to support that--even though the Hero System has done so numerous times over the years for special purposes.

 

[MichaelSomething]

What do you want from your TTRPG?

HERO'S rules are about accurately representing superpowers, modeling superheroes, and combining them in whatever fashion you want.

Monsterhearts' rules are about conflicts derived from relationships, personal ethos, and High School drama.

Now that I think about it, combining these rules sets would be feasible...