Game of Thrones 3.9 "The Rains of Castamere" (spoiler alert)

[NewJeffCT]

If Walder Frey was more of a risk taker before the Red Wedding I think it would feel a bit more comfortably plausible. I'm probably forgetting something but I don't think anyone considered the Lannister grasp on the Iron Throne stable at that point. Walder delivers up an the last major force on the field that can threaten the Lannisters on a silver platter for ... Riverrun and maybe a few marriages. At the cost of utterly ruining the family name for generations assuming everything goes well or the utter destruction of his family if things don't go so well. I'm half tempted to reread the books but on reflection it feels like he's selling too cheap considering the risk\reward.

The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting. Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious. Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.

Heh, this is probably an area for me to put on the blinders but it does sort of break the quasi-medieval setting for me considering how weakly held faith and religion seem to be in the series.

There are seven kingdoms in Westeros - the North, where Winterfell is the seat. Even with the castle razed, it still has symbolic power and is the reason why Bolton holds on to it despite the weather in A Dance with Dragons. Riverrun is the seat of power in the Riverlands - whoever controls it, controls that kingdom. The Riverlands are well populated (unlike Dorne and the Stormlands), and wealthy, though were just devastated by war. So, controlling all of the Riverlands through Riverrun is a pretty big prize.

 

[Grue]

There are seven kingdoms in Westeros - the North, where Winterfell is the seat. Even with the castle razed, it still has symbolic power and is the reason why Bolton holds on to it despite the weather in A Dance with Dragons. Riverrun is the seat of power in the Riverlands - whoever controls it, controls that kingdom. The Riverlands are well populated (unlike Dorne and the Stormlands), and wealthy, though were just devastated by war. So, controlling all of the Riverlands through Riverrun is a pretty big prize.

Heh...I sortof viewed Riverrun area in a similiar situation to the reformation era German Palatinate... once prosperous lands devastated by war that will take generations to recover. And the Palatinate peasants didn't have to worry about a swiftly approaching winter that would last years with empty raided stocks... famine and disease in fictional Riverrun would be epic by comparison.

Considering the wide open indefensible battlefield the riverlands are and the fact they also have a major contender for those lands installed in the form of the extremely deep pocketed Littlefinger (at Harrenhal which if I remember correctly controls the Trident and I'm pretty sure Baelish is the lord of the Riverlands, not the Freys....quick look.... yep Littlefinger is the lord of the Riverlands). The Red Priestess kings blood curse works for me because I don't think it fits that Walder would be such a cheap sell (he gets a white elephant of devasted lands just before winter, no crown over the Riverlands and not even a marriage to one of the royal Lannister kids).

 

[NewJeffCT]

Heh...I sortof viewed Riverrun area in a similiar situation to the reformation era German Palatinate... once prosperous lands devastated by war that will take generations to recover. And the Palatinate peasants didn't have to worry about a swiftly approaching winter that would last years with empty raided stocks... famine and disease in fictional Riverrun would be epic by comparison.

Considering the wide open indefensible battlefield the riverlands are and the fact they also have a major contender for those lands installed in the form of the extremely deep pocketed Littlefinger (at Harrenhal which if I remember correctly controls the Trident and I'm pretty sure Baelish is the lord of the Riverlands, not the Freys....quick look.... yep Littlefinger is the lord of the Riverlands). The Red Priestess kings blood curse works for me because I don't think it fits that Walder would be such a cheap sell (he gets a white elephant of devasted lands just before winter, no crown over the Riverlands and not even a marriage to one of the royal Lannister kids).

Emmon Frey, who took over lordship of Riverrun, is married to Genna Lannister, sister to Tywin Lannister, aunt to Cersei, Jamie & Tyrion. And, yes the Riverlands are in bad shape, but they have rich, fertile grounds and the elder Lord Frey won't survive past the current winter, if it's as long as they say it will be. Plus, it wasn't just a Lannister-Frey deal. It was Lannister-Frey/Bolton deal. And, Roose Bolton is now Warden of the North in place of the Starks.

 

[Oryan77]

The only thing missing was Tyrion in a chariot jumping over a pool of sharks with lazer beams on their heads.

I know he's a little tall to be Tyrion and there is no chariot, but maybe this will make you feel a bit better?
http://www.rpglocker.com/oryan/jump.html

 

[Grue]

Emmon Frey, who took over lordship of Riverrun, is married to Genna Lannister, sister to Tywin Lannister, aunt to Cersei, Jamie & Tyrion. And, yes the Riverlands are in bad shape, but they have rich, fertile grounds and the elder Lord Frey won't survive past the current winter, if it's as long as they say it will be. Plus, it wasn't just a Lannister-Frey deal. It was Lannister-Frey/Bolton deal. And, Roose Bolton is now Warden of the North in place of the Starks.

Yeah...a North overrun with ironborn, raided winter foodstocks and a sacked Winterfell not to mention even though the Stark bannermen get wiped at the Red Wedding if Roose manages to put the Greyjoys down he's stuck with a bunch of holds that will forever brand his family as traitors (granted his only heir is a bastard) and the reasonably intact (and notably difficult) Karstarks have a better claim to legitimacy as the paramount house in the North. And Bolton is noted for his 'calculating caution'.

Considering the Freys do the heavy lifting at the Red Wedding I don't remember why Roose had to be part of the deal besides being married to Walda Frey (who we never intends to sire a heir with....said to have married her for her weight in gold).

Genna Lannister was married to Emmon before the Red Wedding, not a reward. Somehow I don't see that blood tie would matter overmuch to Walder when negotiating a price for the Red Wedding. Marriages he picks up from the Lannisters are Lancel (who despite being Kevan's eldest is not likely to inherit King's Landing at the time of the Red Wedding), and Daven (who is a cousin of the main line in the large Lannister family). Myrcella or Tommen Baratheon or the Crown of the Riverlands probably should have been the minimum asking price considering his previous actions and established character... Walder got neither for committing the worst crime imaginable in this society but removing the last apparent major threat to the Lannisters.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Yeah...a North overrun with ironborn, raided winter foodstocks and a sacked Winterfell not to mention even though the Stark bannermen get wiped at the Red Wedding if Roose manages to put the Greyjoys down he's stuck with a bunch of holds that will forever brand his family as traitors (granted his only heir is a bastard) and the reasonably intact (and notably difficult) Karstarks have a better claim to legitimacy as the paramount house in the North. And Bolton is noted for his 'calculating caution'.

Considering the Freys do the heavy lifting at the Red Wedding I don't remember why Roose had to be part of the deal besides being married to Walda Frey (who we never intends to sire a heir with....said to have married her for her weight in gold).

Genna Lannister was married to Emmon before the Red Wedding, not a reward. Somehow I don't see that blood tie would matter overmuch to Walder when negotiating a price for the Red Wedding. Marriages he picks up from the Lannisters are Lancel (who despite being Kevan's eldest is not likely to inherit King's Landing at the time of the Red Wedding), and Daven (who is a cousin of the main line in the large Lannister family). Myrcella or Tommen Baratheon or the Crown of the Riverlands probably should have been the minimum asking price considering his previous actions and established character... Walder got neither for committing the worst crime imaginable in this society but removing the last apparent major threat to the Lannisters.

The Freys are not considered an important enough family to have received Myrcella or Tommen's hand in marriage. Tommen was second in line for the throne at the time of the Red Wedding, while Myrcella had already been pledged to Trystane Martell of Dorne. The initial betrothal to Robb Stark was already a stretch for them, but Walder Frey knew he had them over a barrel when Cat negotiated passage. At the time, Cat also probably had hopes her sister would join the war against the Lannisters, so Frey figured that the North, the Riverlands and the Vale had a good chance in the war.

After Stannis was defeated and reduced to near insignificance, the Ironborn sacked Winterfell and the Tyrells/Highgarden joined the Lannisters, Frey's choices were join with Robb and hope to fight to a draw (at best), or else throw in with the Lannisters and end the war quickly. Remember, at the beginning, Dorne had sent men marching North to be a part of the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery, so it might have been looked at as even Dorne was joining with Highgarden and the Lannisters.

 

[Grue]

The Freys are not considered an important enough family to have received Myrcella or Tommen's hand in marriage. Tommen was second in line for the throne at the time of the Red Wedding, while Myrcella had already been pledged to Trystane Martell of Dorne. The initial betrothal to Robb Stark was already a stretch for them, but Walder Frey knew he had them over a barrel when Cat negotiated passage. At the time, Cat also probably had hopes her sister would join the war against the Lannisters, so Frey figured that the North, the Riverlands and the Vale had a good chance in the war.

After Stannis was defeated and reduced to near insignificance, the Ironborn sacked Winterfell and the Tyrells/Highgarden joined the Lannisters, Frey's choices were join with Robb and hope to fight to a draw (at best), or else throw in with the Lannisters and end the war quickly. Remember, at the beginning, Dorne had sent men marching North to be a part of the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery, so it might have been looked at as even Dorne was joining with Highgarden and the Lannisters.

If survival was what mattered, the Freys (and Bolton) could have just pledged their banners to Lannister and closed down the Twins to the North. Tywin brought the Tyrells back under Joffery with a marriage alliance (and no penalty that I remember) and in regard to the Dornishmen the Martells have a very big axe to grind with the Lannisters over the near blood feud due to the killing of Princess Elia and her two children with Rhaegar Targaryen.

Given the importance and what should be a huge stigma of breaking the salt bond (punished by gods and not just men) in a world that should be fairly superstitious, Tywin is way out line if the Red Wedding was demanded as a condition of Frey\Bolton survival. Especially considering that Tywin while ruthless is also practical... pardoning the Freys and Bolton to have them switch sides a small payoff considering he would know how precarious the Lannister position was at that moment. I don't see Walder (and Bolton) being in a total panic to make any sort of deal to survive... merely switching sides good enough to ensure a pardon. They wanted more than survival but they sold cheap considering he could have just buttoned up and sat on the fence a bit longer with a reasonably intact force if Tywin proved intransigent.

I'm just going with the 'curse pushed Frey to take that last step' rather than a flaw in the Red Wedding setup. You do not break the salt bond that way (in a world that has more reason to believe it than we do) unless the stakes are comparitively huge or madness or extreme passion (or both) drive you to it.

 

[jonesy]

Tywin doesn't put much weight into the gods, though. And I've been trying to figure out what religion the Frey follow and I can't find any mention of religion having something to do with them. I can't even find mention of a maester at the twins. There are two maesters in the Frey family, but they've gone to serve other lords.

 

[Grue]

Yup Tywin and probably Littlefinger I'd grant feel natural in their secular outlook and devil take the hindmost attitude. That the attitude feels a bit prevalent in the nobility a quasi-medieval society where magic, ancestral curses, miracles, etc have a factual truth in the not too distant past does break the atmosphere for me a bit but I can put the blinders on for the most part. However, the religious scenes he does have I didn't find compelling...particularly the Greyjoys sea-based religion felt a bit flat (not sure what it was for me) and in large part the impression I got from alot of his crafted religions I didn't get a sense that the various followers have a strong emotional attachment to their beliefs and deities (except maybe fear).

I dunno, without rereading maybe I'm left with the impression because he tells but doesn't show or rather he doesn't connect it to his characters. Or that his rare relgious character or two are either killed off quickly (and\or not fully developed) or are nearly totally corrupt in some fashion.

Martin did convey the importance of family over the self however very well... and vows, oaths, and all the other trappings of a feudal society. And clearly understood the guest-right\salt bond thing from a non-modern perspective. I just don't think Tywin's outlook should be universal or widespread with Westeros nobility because it doesn't fit logically (especially with the Freys who seem a bit more old fashioned).

 

[Remus Lupin]

I'd guess that the Freys, being from the Riverlands, worship the Seven. But I agree with Grue that it certainly seems among the nobility that most religious observance is somewhat pro forma in any case.

As for pious characters of any kind, the Starks certainly seemed pious after their fashion with regard to the Old Gods, and of course we have the examples of the religion of R'hollor, of whom Mellisandre is the clearest example (it also seems to be the religion that offers the most "cash value" for belief in Westeros). And it remains to be seen whether the Iron Lords Dagon-ish religion gets them very far. Across the narrow sea, the Dothraki don't seem to put a lot of stock in their religion, nor the Slavers (is the Harpy a God?), but the Dark God of the Faceless Men also seems to have some actual real-world weight.

One day perhaps I'll get around to writing something of some length on Westerosi religion. But I'm interested in what Martin intends to do with it, if anything, by the end.