Gaming Group Troubles

[pukunui]

Hi folks,

I'm having some issues with my gaming group, and I'd like to get some opinions from my fellow gamers here on EN World.

I'll just start from the beginning: I've been running a Star Wars Saga Edition "Dawn of Defiance" campaign for the past year now, and late last year I recruited a new player who I thought was just the guy I was looking for. He was familiar with the ruleset, having GMed it himself before, and seemed quite enthusiastic about Star Wars in general. At the time, the "core" group was playing both my SWSE game and another GM's D&D 4e campaign, so we generally alternated between the two each week, but sometimes we'd adjust the schedule, or one of us would run a game several weeks in a row or whatever.

Then, over the southern summer (Dec-Feb), I put my game on hold because my players and I were all going away on holiday one after the other. During the break, the other GM decided not to continue with his 4e campaign, and so the new guy (who hadn't been playing in that game, just my SWSE game), decided to start up a Pathfinder game of his own. He recruited three of my SWSE players, and they agreed to play on the alternate "gap" Fridays between my Star Wars sessions. I had heard rumors that something was in the works from one of the players, but nothing concrete. I didn't find out the details until I pried them out of the new guy after he told me he wasn't available to meet with me one Friday - he had just said "No, sorry, playing Pathfinder ...", so I had said, "Oh really?" and it was only then that he said, "Yeah, I'm running a Pathfinder game, and three of your guys are playing in it too so it's not just me, and we're gonna play on Friday when you're not running SW, oh and we're gonna play weekly starting this week until you restart SW." At the time, I jokingly commented that he had usurped my group, and he [jokingly?] replied "Booyah! Yoinked whilst you were sleeping pal!", but the thing is: now I really do feel like he's usurped it.

I told him that I'd been hoping to run SW three weeks in a row to get some momentum going, and while he seemed a bit reluctant to put his game on hold for one week, he agreed. But then, at the last minute during the middle week, he called in sick, which meant we didn't have enough players to play and I had to cancel. So I didn't end up getting to run my campaign three weeks in a row after all.

Since then, I've struggled to get any momentum going in my campaign. It's been floundering a bit, partly because of the module we're currently slogging through (DoD 3: The Queen of Air & Darkness, for reference). Since I've restarted, I've asked the other guy three more times to let me run SW in place of his PF game, and he's refused every time. And after my latest attempt, he's had the presumption to get mad at me for "repeatedly" asking him to postpone his campaign - this after he just up and quit my campaign altogether!

I spoke to one of my players over e-mail about it a few weeks ago, and I mentioned that I hadn't been kept in the loop about the whole PF thing in the first place, and his response was just something along the lines of "Oh, I didn't know that. I thought he'd just invited you and you'd declined."

I talked to another of my players more recently over the phone, and he said that he and the others were actually enjoying the new guy's campaign more than mine and that if he had to choose, he would definitely choose the other guy's at this stage, and he felt fairly confident the other two players would as well. This is a guy I've been gaming with regularly for about 5 years now. He and I are the only two remaining "founding" members of our group. It feels like he's stabbing me in the back (although, at the same time, in the past six months or so, he's been getting really cynical - one of my players even brought it up with me privately after the last session - and I had actually been thinking about asking him to deal with his attitude or leave the group, but I just hadn't ever worked up the courage to do so, mainly because I do consider him a friend).

As you can no doubt tell, I'm rather upset about all of this. And yes, I know I should tell everyone how I feel, and to a certain extent I already have, but I'm still holding back because I just don't feel I can confront my friends directly without letting my emotions get the better of me. I need to find a calm, happy place first, but I don't really know how to do that. I've always been a bit of a hot-headed type. I'd make a better Sith than a Jedi.

Anyway, I had been feeling like just calling it quits because it was starting to feel more like work than play, and I was getting sick of having to "manage" the group and all that (some of them are quite uncommunicative - sometimes just getting them to give me their PC's level-up details is like pulling teeth), but I did actually get around to running a game last Friday and although it didn't go well for the PCs, I thought everyone seemed to enjoy it more than the previous session, which had been a whole month before rather than only two weeks, and it also rejuvenated my own interest in continuing the campaign.

However, because of the new guy's unwillingness to put off his own game (and, honestly, I can understand that his priorities have shifted so that his own "baby" is more important that mine, but the thing is: he did commit to playing in my campaign first), I still can't get any momentum going.

So at this point I feel like maybe I should just cut my losses and ask the three players involved to make their choice between the new guy's campaign and mine, knowing full well that they'll choose his. That'll still leave me with two players who are happy enough with the way my campaign's going and who will want to keep playing it. I could keep running it with just the two of them until I can recruit another player or two to fill the gaps. They could each have an extra character, or I could throw in some NPC droid lackeys or something, to help them out.


Please note that all of the above is tainted with my own bias. I may have left some things out, although it would not be intentionally. I'm not really looking for anyone to take sides or to give me advice on what to do. I think I'm more just venting, but I'm also curious to see what my fellow gamers think of this whole situation. Am I just being bratty and childish, like my wife seems to think I am, or am I justified in being upset that my position has been "usurped"? I will admit to having a bit of an "I was here first" mentality, which isn't necessarily a good thing. I would've liked to think that my friends would choose to stick with me out of solidarity and friendship, but I guess not? And I know that once a month is as good as some gaming groups get, but I'm not used to that - I'm used to a mostly fortnightly schedule with some flexibility to run weekly on occasion, and that's now been taken away from, and in what seems like a very underhanded way.

Anyway, I'll stop there. Would love some thoughts. Thanks.

- Jonathan

 

[scourger]

Man, I've been there. It really stings to have your group quit your game, especially if they are friends. But, it happens; and it sounds like it has happened to you. The worst part to me is that you apparently were not invited to the Pathfinder replacement game. But you still get to play in the semi-monthly 4e game, right; or is it gone? Can you get an invite to the PF game (and would you want to)?

Two things to keep in mind. First, there is no loyalty among gamers. I mistakenly thought so at one time. But, this is not a team sport. There are no groups, just irregular collections of individuals. Even your friends will not show for a game that they don't enjoy and will choose other games or activities that they do enjoy. Everyone is out for their own fun, and you should be too. Which brings me to my second point, this is all about having fun. If you're struggling to keep a game running, don't. Give it up. Or switch up the players. Ask your friends what they want to do so that you can get on with what you want to do to have the most fun.

And, don't take it personally. Because it isn't. I know it's hard not to take it hard, but you can choose to just take it as everyone is just exercising their individual preferences; which they are. You are too.

If the groups need to split, that's cool too. To each his own and no hard feelings.

 

[pukunui]

Thanks scourger. The group hasn't exactly quit on me yet. It's just that I've been told in no uncertain terms that if I force the three players playing in both games to choose one or the other, they'll choose the other rather than mine. And, frankly, at this point I think I'm willing to let them go. I would like to think that two of them at least are good friends but the third is just a gaming acquaintance (that is to say, I occasionally socialize with the first two outside of game night, but the third I only ever see at the gaming table), and I am aware that his interest has been slipping for some time. (Apparently one of the others is angry with him for letting it drag out and not just coming forward to tell me he wants to quit the group.)

The 4e game is done and dusted. However, I recently got invited to join another group's epic-level 4e game, which is fortnightly on Monday nights, so that helped a bit. And although I have no interest in playing Pathfinder, even if I did, I would not accept an invite to join that game even if one was extended to me.

But yeah: I was expecting some loyalty from my friends. So it's quite a shock to realize that they'll abandon me seemingly at the drop of a hat. And who knows, maybe they're perfectly justified in feeling the way they do too. Maybe I am "that" GM who's unwittingly driving away his players. I'm a big fan of house rules, and while I am generally quite democratic about things and ask my players for their opinions on various rules before implementing them, I know that at least one of them hates house rules. He'd much rather play by the book, even when the book doesn't make sense. He's the other "founding" member of the group I referred to earlier.

So yeah: I'm thinking maybe it's time to call it the end of an era. I'll let the phoenix die and embrace the new one that rises from its ashes. The campaign itself can go on, and I'll do it with just the two players who are still enjoying it if I had to. It'll be sad to lose some of the other guys. I like them. They're great guys. But yeah, OK. I'll try not to let it feel like they're stabbing me in the back if they choose to leave.

EDIT:

Ask your friends what they want to do so that you can get on with what you want to do to have the most fun.

This is actually partly why I'm frustrated. I do ask them every now and again what is fun for them and what isn't, what they want to see more of and what they want to see less of and so on, but they generally don't tell me. Only one or two of them do. Getting most of my players to communicate outside of game night, particularly via e-mail, is often like pulling teeth.

 

[Dragonblade]

Honestly, I can sympathize. I started a group a couple of years ago and invited one of my best friends, and then another two guys I was friends with but not real close to. Well, all three of them hit it off great and have gone on to be really good friends outside of gaming. They have gone camping together, travelled together and even been invited to each other's weddings.

Except they rarely invite me to anything outside of gaming.

I don't bring it up because I don't want to look like the whiny loser, and I don't feel like they are intentionally snubbing me. Honestly, I don't like camping, or travelling. They know this and I presume that's why I wasn't invited, but it still hurts to be left out and not even asked if I wanted to go. Especially when they are bantering at the game table and I can't join in because I wasn't with them at whatever event they were at.

So I know the feeling.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Quick question for the OP. Have you ever been invited to play Pathfinder with the rest of the group or are they excluding you from that?

Not getting to play anything with your friends is a lot worse than not getting to run the exact game you want, when you want.

EDIT: Missed that bit about the invite. Oh well. If you are going to be that inflexible then you may have trouble finding a sustainable group.

 

[IronWolf]

Definitely a frustrating situation. I certainly think conveying your disappointment to your friends in a rational matter is a good idea. It may not change the situation, but at least everyone will know why one person is frustrated. And you may learn why they are tending towards the Pathfinder game. Maybe they just needed a change of pace, but were afraid to tell you so it feels more like your game was usurped from you.

Are you able to play in the Pathfinder game? Not saying the situation was handled the greatest, as it does read as your game was taken from you without a discussion leading to it - but if you can play in the Pathfinder game it still might be a good way to hang with friends and have a good time.

Still worth talking to them about to see why the group switched to Pathfinder without discussing it with you. People do change games and campaigns over the course of time playing together - they just usually discuss it *before* simply switching the schedule on you.

Good luck!

 

[Bagpuss]

I have no interest in playing Pathfinder, even if I did, I would not accept an invite to join that game even if one was extended to me.

You sound a little petty here.

So what are your house rules that are driving people away?

 

[R-Hero]

At the time, I jokingly commented that he had usurped my group, and he [jokingly?] replied "Booyah! Yoinked whilst you were sleeping pal!", but the thing is: now I really do feel like he's usurped it.

I think it was Shakespear that said "Many truths are spoken in jest."
You feel that he stole some of your players and he, on some level, admitted to the same.
Ask yourself why did the players leave?

From the body of your post it sounds like it was just player fatigue (for Star Wars) and wanting to dive into something new. (Pathfinder)
I'll admit it sounds like there was a little dirty pool involved, but its sounds like it was mainly wanting a change of game or even Gm style.

So at this point I feel like maybe I should just cut my losses... That'll still leave me with two players who are happy enough with the way my campaign's going and who will want to keep playing it...

This sounds like the best solution to your problem. You still have a game going. Use a few NPCs temporarly, find a few new players.



I would try to stay on good terms with any players that may have a change of heart in the future, especially if I considered them to be good freinds.

I have never stayed in a group that didn't change some over the years.

 

[pukunui]

Quick question for the OP. Have you ever been invited to play Pathfinder with the rest of the group or are they excluding you from that?

No, I was never invited. But I would've declined even if I had because I don't like Pathfinder at all.

EDIT: Missed that bit about the invite. Oh well. If you are going to be that inflexible then you may have trouble finding a sustainable group.

I'm the one being inflexible?!

You sound a little petty here.

It does, doesn't it? I didn't mean it that way. I should've just said that I don't like Pathfinder so I wouldn't want to play even if invited, but I was still angry at the time (I've since had a good night's sleep) and I was thinking along the lines of not wanting to play PF with that specific GM because of how upset I was with him.

So what are your house rules that are driving people away?

I don't really want to get into that here. I've got one player who hates house rules on principle. He'd much rather play by the book, even when the book doesn't make sense or flat out doesn't work. Actually, he's always telling me to "just make a call", and yet he seems to get annoyed when I do just that (or at least when my judgment call ends up creating a new house rule).

I think it was Shakespear that said "Many truths are spoken in jest."
You feel that he stole some of your players and he, on some level, admitted to the same.

Yes, exactly!

Ask yourself why did the players leave?

I think I need to clear up a few things: first, the other three players haven't exactly left my group. The only one who has left so far is the new guy who started up the PF game. The others have still been playing Star Wars as well as Pathfinder. The trouble is that I want more flexibility in when I run Star Wars. In the past, I mostly ran my game on a fortnightly basis, but sometimes I ran it several weeks in a row. I can't do that now because I've got half my group playing in another game in the same "time slot" and the GM of that game flatly refuses to adjust his schedule. The thing is, I feel like if he'd bothered to keep me in the loop ("Hey, I'm looking at starting up a PF game, and these three other guys in your group want to play, and the only day that works for us is Friday, and since the 4e game your group was playing in imploded, I thought I might run my PF game on the Fridays when you're not running SW ..."), I think I might not have ended so upset about it. I might have been able to talk to him about it and air my concerns before things got set in stone. I would've reminded him that I like to play weekly sometimes and we could've hashed out an agreement. Now I feel like it's too late. The competing game was sprung on me, and I feel like my freedom as a GM has been taken away. So I suppose perhaps I shouldn't say that my "group" was stolen from me but that my "freedom" and "flexibility" to adjust the gaming schedule were.

So I'm going to take my freedom back by force, if necessary!


Also, regarding the three players who are in both campaigns:

#1 made it clear to me in no uncertain terms that, if forced to make a choice, he would choose the PF game; he also said that he was fairly confident the other two would make the same choice (turns out he was wrong). This hurt because of our history. He's the only remaining "founding" member of our original gaming group that started up about 5 years ago. But I can understand his decision. And to be brutally honest, I'm not sure I'd be all that sad to see the back of him because he's become really cynical and negative over the past six months or so. I think his work situation has a lot to do with it.

#2 has told me that he's not enjoying the current SW adventure, but that he would like to keep playing. However, he's not going to give up the PF game either. So I've told him that he's still welcome, but if he's not comfortable with the idea of missing out a SW game every time there's a PF game on the same night, then he should consider dropping out of my group altogether and that I wouldn't hold it against him if he did so.

#3 seemed genuinely shocked when I told him what was going on, and he professed that he is enjoying both games and would like to continue playing in both games (so #1 was very much wrong about #3 being so unhappy with my campaign that he was on the verge of quitting). I've told him the same thing I told #2: that he's still welcome, but that if he's not comfortable with the idea of missing SW games on a regular basis, it might be better for him to drop out.


I don't know if that clears things up any or not.

 

[A flannel shirt]

I feel for you. We've all been there. But if these people turned away that fast then are they really worth trying to keep?

I say use em. Play it nice, ask what they don't like about your game. Ask what he does better. Use this as a chance to take YOUR games to the next level. This may sound mean, but get what you can out of them (even if that includes you playing PF) and find an alternate group while you gather the info. Once you get your new following then tell the first group bye bye.

Wow I sound like a jerk.