Gelatinous cube tpk

XO

First Post
Mostly

Shadeydm said:
So every adventurer in your campaign world knows what a Gelatenous Cube is how nice for you.

At least the educated ones, which means the non-savage clerics, the paladins, the druids, the wizards, part of the sorcerers, the... never mind...

The fantasy world recreation of dark ages or medieval Earth rarely works... It may satisfy your initial adventuring thrust, but it rarely holds up under close scrutiny and the adventuring world must then be something else...
 

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XO

First Post
That Would Suck

just__al said:
You'd think it would be the ones with Knowledge Dungoneering...

Reason why is "too many knowledge categories in this game".

Next reason: does not work... People do not wake up one day, freshly unwrapped, bright eyed, bushy tailed, unsullied by the world at large, candid and bloody ignorant...

Of course, adventurers could be magical constructs, only programmed to warfare, and recently manufactured for a recently waged war... So they wouldn't know about G Cubes, 'cause it's not part of their training.

Oops... It's been done... never mind :)
 
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XO said:
Reason why is "too many knowledge categories in this game".
Regardless, that's what the rules are. If your PC has Knowledge (Dungeoneering), they have a chance to recognize a gelatinous cube the first time they see one, and a chance to know a bit about its abilities. One rank in this skill might represent the accumulation of knowledge from weird stories they've heard, for example. If they don't have that skill, they are out of luck.
 

SlagMortar

First Post
The Gelatinous Cube was moving down a 5 foot wide corridor? Did you give it the ]squeezing penalty since it is 10 ft x 10 ft? I'm not even sure if Gelatinous Cubes can squeeze given that they fill their entire area.

Assuming it can squeeze, it has an AC 0 and a 5 foot movement rate. An 18 Strength 7th level fighter with power attack and unarmed strikes can attack twice while grappled at +0/-4 for 1d3+11 and average around 20 points of damage per round. It would also take at least 4 rounds for the thing to envelope everyone because it can only move 5 feet on the round it performs a standard action. Also, I would have given them a hint about it's generally terrible AC. "It's about as easy to hit as the broad side of a barn because, well, it is about the same size and shape as the broad side of a barn."

35 damage is also pretty high for a 7 dice fireball. Part of that is just bad luck.
 
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SlagMortar

First Post
I agree it should be able to squeeze. I don't think it should be able to do so without penalty. If it can do so without penalty, then there should be a pretty substantial challenge rating increase. Given all the advantages the DM gave to the cube, I don't think it is particularly surprising that the PC's got unlucky and died.
 

newgrace

First Post
I dont think "everyone" would know about gelatinous cubes. Obviously different campaigns will have different lvls of education among its people, as will different regions within a campaign. But you keep comparing it our current culture, which while is considered "enlightened" is still very ignorant to its surroundings, and we have a massive lvl of technology to our advantage. Unless oozes are flowing around the town, why would the average guard/warrior ever learn how to fight something found in a dungeon.

If your character were going to learn about G cubes, he should put a point in knowledge dungeoneering to show he spent the time to learn what kind of creatures are in that environment.

Can you list the types of creatures that live in the nearby sewer system, can you list the creatures that are native to your area, or as you most likely have a cave system within your state/country, can you list the creatures that call it home. And i dont just mean type. They could of said "ooze", but that tells them very little about a gelatinous cube.

I always hate playing with players who have memorized the MM. How would your fighter, who spent all his time learning the blade but not reading any book, know you need a silver weapon to face that werebear. How would the wizard know to avoid the cold spells vs that skeleton. Was that what he studied? Probably not, he probably spent all his time learning how to handle and cast spells, not on the strengths/weaknesses of the local wildlife...much less other regions wildlife.

My point is, you can have amazing knowledge/skill in one/two subjects, but still be wildly ignorant to the world. So to assume an entire party of adventurers would "recognize" a G cube and know how to handle it, and put down the DM for not letting them, is just rude.

I played in a party where we ended up in a similar situation. I had heard of a G Cube, but even out of character didnt recognize what was before me. It made for a really fun and memorable session.

Anyways, its never good when you kill the entire party. While those above have already stated how some of the rules should of applied, you should probably give your players a second chance on life. Perhaps they miraciously survived, and were dragged out by a helpful stranger (which provides a story hook). Or just let them restart, although that creates a break in the story. As a player, and a DM, id just let those who wanted a new character die, and those who liked theirs barely survive and be rescued by the other players. Brings them together, picks up after a bad situation, and lets the story continue.
 

Seems to me like the biggest error here was using a monster that you didn't know the rules for against an inexperienced party. Mistakes were made on both sides. Call it a learning experience, and move on.

I would still be interested in finding out more about this "long story" that led to the *entire* party ending up in the cube.
 

Darklone

Registered User
Spot checks DC 15 killed this group, nothing else. Even advancing the monster didn't do the trick. Neither some bad rulings.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Mistakes were probably made on both sides.

"Long story short..."

Engulf is not automatic. You do get a saving throw. So lets here that long story.

"Squeezing down a 5x5 corridor..."

Normally, squeezing requires a penalty. Oozes are amorpheous plastic beings, and as such (thought its not explicit and it should be) they effectively have high epic levels of the escape artist skill. In other words, oozes get no penalty for squeezing.

"Not having leverage..."

You always have leverage in a grapple. At the very least, you can lever yourself against whatever force is holding you. If no force is holding you, you aren't grappled. If a gelatinious cube's interior was completely non-viscous, then you wouldn't have leverage, but you also wouldn't be grappled and could escape with a Swim skill check.

"2) I ruled that all the characters had an effective dex of 1 for reflex saves, since they were trapped inside the thing."

No. The rules are pretty clear here, and you should read them. The characters loose thier DEX bonus (if they have one) when grappled for the purposes of AC only. There are no other penalties.

Now, if they are paralyzed, that is a different story. Paralyzed characters are helpless, and thus automatically have a DEX of 0.

Paralyzed characters do not automatically fail reflex saves. They aren't even automatically hit by attacks (although with a Dex of 0 and a +4 bonus to hit them, its a fair bet they will be hit).

"Strength and Gelatinious cubes"

You just learned one of your major lessons as a DM. Minor changes in the abilities of a monster can have enormous impacts on the lethality of the monster, if what you change is one of the critical weaknesses of the monster. In the case of grapplers, increasing thier size and strength, especially if their size or strength is initially relatively low, will enormously increase the challenge. Your estimate of CR 5 is probably about correct, assuming you didn't do any other enhancements to the creature, but what you discovered is that one of the assumptions on gelatinous cube CR is that the players can recognize the creature and will take appropriate actions (like running away). Since you were dealing with inexperienced players, and since the Gelatinous cube is a TPK machine if not properly dealt with, I'm not surprised at the results.

If you really want to make the Gelantious Cube killer, fix its other two weaknesses - make it fly and increase its speed.

"Fireball exploding on impact"

Yes. Although the spellcraft check to know that should have been relatively low since its a property common to spells in general (and not just fireball), DC 8 would have been appropriate, and certainly not higher than DC 13. If a 4th level character had invested in spellcraft much at all, I don't see how they would have failed a spellcraft check of a DC like that. Using a typical 4th level Wizard I get a spellcraft skill check of +12 (+3 Int, +7 spellcraft ranks, +2 synergy from 5 ranks of Know (Arcana)), and that's not even counting a possible circumstance bonus if the Wizard had used the wand before.

"Cube blocks line of effect"

Yes it does. Only the wand user and the cube should have been effected by the full blast of the wand. The other players trapped in the cube effectively had full cover, though I would have ruled that if the blast dropped the cube to less than -10 hit points, that the blast burned through the cover (I don't want players arguing that a sheet of paper or a gauze curtain blocks line of effect on a fireball, even though under the RAW it does), and the players were exposed to the excess damage (probably only a couple of points) and that even then I think I would have given the party the equivalent of evasion, so that if they made thier reflex saves (paralyzed ones having 0 DEX) they would have avoided all damage.

"Characters knowing about Gelatinous cubes even if thier players do not"

I think its reasonable that the characters might know something about Gelatinous cubes, but rather unreasonable to assume that they automatically should know about them. My personal feeling is that oozes are 'natural' (non-magical) beings in a fantasy world, and thus fall under the province of Knowledge (Nature). If you think oozes are magical, then they should fall under Knowledge (Arcana). Unless thier background prevents it, I personally allow characters to make intelligence checks on any knowledge that they aren't trained in to reflect the fact that people will collect bits of information about fields even if they aren't skilled in them. A gelatinous cube is a fairly rare creature, not ordinarily a part of an average person's experience, so I'd give like a DC 20 Knowledge (Nature)/Intelligence check to recognize one (as a type of dangerous ooze) when it had been spotted, and a DC 25 Knowledge (Nature)/Intelligence check to know significant things about it (it paralyzes by touch, it engulfs foes by running over them, its slow moving, its harmed by ordinary weapons).
 
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