General Discussion

[perrinmiller]

I think I am mostly on board with GE and those agreeing with him. Boots of Elvenkind that Enhance Acrobatics, would be applied after the Perform Skill substitution.

At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.

But after reading this, I disagree that an item increasing Perform Skill, would not also transfer. The key word is "total", I think. That means Trait, Circumstance, Enhancement, Insight, etc... would all transfer. That is what total means.

Situational bonuses that trigger? I would need an example to judge, but if it triggers, it would apply, I think.

Let me ask this, why is it over-powered? We are talking about situational skill checks. Versatile Performance is something help Bards be stronger in skills. So what if they can save money using a magic item for three skills. Giving a bard +2 or +5 to three skills for the price of one is hardly game breaking and about on par for actual applications as an item that boosts Perception by +2 or +5.

Realistically anything making Dance better would make acrobatics better. However, realistically I don't see how magic slippers would help fly skill, but magic slippers are hardly realistic themselves.

Since Cythera only gets to apply Perform Dance to Acrobatics, I am planning to buy a MWK Skill Kit to boost Perform Dance and I feel that is applicable to Acrobatics checks. At this point, I would even pay double if that's what it takes to apply to both skills, what's 50gp to 7th level character.

If I eventually buy Boots of Elvenkind, that is an enhancement bonus and it would also apply to Acrobatics checks if she doesn't have any other enhancement bonus from Perform Dance.

 

[jkason]

While I understand the concerns about 3-for-1's with Versatile skills, it seems to me that's kind of the point of the ability, isn't it? The bard concentrates on buffing up her performance skills (the most bard-like skill in the game), and as an added benefit, gets to use that boost on associated skills.

If I'm right in the intent, then I think it stands to reason that any bonus to the Perform adds to the substituting skill, but SINCE it's a substitution, bonuses on the actual skill don't apply; anything which explicitly references your Acrobatics check (or other swapped skill) won't help if you're using Versatile for the check. That seems to me a reasonable trade-off for the skill economy. If you want to train up Acrobatics on its own and forego that class feature to use skill-specific items, that's another story.

Yes it can make for cheaper items for the Bard, but I'm not sure it's broken for that. That's my take so far, anyway.

And, on an unrelated topic: while custom items haven't been specifically disallowed I would vote against their use in LPF.

If this came to a proposal, I think I'm inclined to agree, or at least agree that any specific custom item should maybe only be allowed with a proposal? It starts to get a bit Craft-y, I think, otherwise.

 

[Systole]

But after reading this, I disagree that an item increasing Perform Skill, would not also transfer. The key word is "total", I think. That means Trait, Circumstance, Enhancement, Insight, etc... would all transfer. That is what total means.

That seems to be the unofficial official answer - that either an Acrobatics bonus or a Dance bonus would work. But as I said before, I think the judges should not feel constrained by lawyerly readings of the source material, and should do what they feel makes sense. I personally don't like James Jacobs' ruling, in part because I think it's inconsistent with the fact that you're not actually performing when you use Versatile Performance. If you're not actually playing a flute, for example, then I find it hard to see how a MWK flute could apply its bonus to Handle Animal check. But I don't think it's hugely broken either way.




On an unrelated topic, I'm rather surprised that you guys are leaning against custom magic items. You're allowing both custom magic weapons and armor, and you've done a blanket approval for custom MWK items. I don't really see what the difference is.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

On an unrelated topic, I'm rather surprised that you guys are leaning against custom magic items. You're allowing both custom magic weapons and armor, and you've done a blanket approval for custom MWK items. I don't really see what the difference is.

I'd also weigh in against custom magic items (of the Wondrous variety). The MW items we've allowed provide a well defined and very limited bonus to skills. Weapons and armor are specific and limited in their application, and have well defined limitations built into the rules for their design. And - as far as I know - all of the 'custom' weapons and armor in LPF draw their powers from the list in the Core Rules. But allowing custom wondrous items in would, I think, lead to all kinds of unforeseen - and impossible to predict - synergies and interactions that have the potential to be very unbalancing.

Also, I've spoken out before about both the 'Christmas Tree' magic item approach and the 'cherry picking' feel that LPF has for me. These are really my only two 'gripes' about LPF; they're minor, and I'd like to keep them that way. I think that allowing custom magic items would only exacerbate these gripes for me.

 

[jkason]

But allowing custom wondrous items in would, I think, lead to all kinds of unforeseen - and impossible to predict - synergies and interactions that have the potential to be very unbalancing.

I think this is where my head is. Custom MW seems to just even things out (every skill can now get a +2 from a MW item, just like every skill can now get +1 and be in-class for the price of Trait); weapons and armor seem to be pretty simplistic in the 'x quality = x price' model, such that I didn't even consider that to be customized (though I probably should have).

Wondrous items are a lot more open, or they seem that way to me (as always, I'll grant that my perception isn't necessarily the best), and it seems like opening those to customization without approval complicates things much more than saying "you can add shock to any weapon for x price," for example.

 

[GlassEye]

Custom magic items: there is a big difference between custom weapons & armor, masterwork tools of any sort, and custom wondrous items.

Customization of weapons/armor is limited to a special material and a very specific list of enhancements and that's it.

A MW tool can be just about any object but I don't feel the +2 circumstance bonus to whatever skill it is applied to is large enough to be unbalancing. Also, it won't stack with any other circumstance bonus that might apply.

The rules for custom wondrous items can very easily be manipulated to provide unbalancing effects. I think those rules are intended for GM use to determine values of custom items and not necessarily for player use. Because of the nature of LPF and the differences between GMs I think it would necessary for the judges to approve every custom wondrous item. Frankly, I don't want to bother; I think it would just be easier to not allow players to commission special items like that. However, I do think that we could use the section on 'Adding New Abilities' for magic items without much of a problem though I think we should probably put a few limitations on it for clarity's sake in what is allowed.

 

[sunshadow21]

The biggest issue with custom wondrous items is figuring out the proper cost and relative power level. Weapons and armor follow a simple formula that firmly establishes both. Everything else tends to be as much an art form as it is a science, and would be very hard to pull off in the LPF environment.

 

[Systole]

Weapons and armor are specific and limited in their application, and have well defined limitations built into the rules for their design. And - as far as I know - all of the 'custom' weapons and armor in LPF draw their powers from the list in the Core Rules. But allowing custom wondrous items in would, I think, lead to all kinds of unforeseen - and impossible to predict - synergies and interactions that have the potential to be very unbalancing.

I don't think that's entirely true. Wondrous items are all designed to a specific application with a clearly defined cost per ability, listed here. Belt of Dexterity +3? 9000gp. Boots of Dancing +7? 4900gp. As I see it, all customization really does is allow ability bonuses that aren't multiples of 2 and skill bonuses that aren't multiples of 5. And you can put them in different slots.

 

[sunshadow21]

I don't think that's entirely true. Wondrous items are all designed to a specific application with a clearly defined cost per ability, listed here. Belt of Dexterity +3? 9000gp. Boots of Dancing +7? 4900gp. As I see it, all customization really does is allow ability bonuses that aren't multiples of 2 and skill bonuses that aren't multiples of 5. And you can put them in different slots.

That's one thing you can do with wondrous items, but you also have sovereign glue, the handy haversack, the feather tokens, and a whole myriad of other items that do things not so easily priced. What you mentioned isn't that hard to work with, but you try to do something like the belt of dwarvenkind, and you run into headaches.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Sorry, Systole - I'm just not convinced that this would be a good thing for LPF. It just . . . loosens things up . . . too much for my taste.