Gloom Stalker / Assassin: sick multiclass?

[Mort]

I think the moral of the story is that Assassin takes a class/build good for alpha striking and turns it a bit ridiculous!

Adding Assassin to a paladin build generates really high damage numbers (with the only real caveats being 1. it has to be a dex paladin and 2. it runs out of steam (smites) quick).

 

[cooperjer]

A gloomstalker rogue with a long bow is a murder machine. I have one in my AL games in Against the Giants. First turn strikes are usually near 100 HP damage to a giant. What do I do? I add another giant to the encounter so the other players have something to do. I might add the giant at the back to really add some pressure. The character fears melee combat and is usually at the back of the line.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A gloomstalker rogue with a long bow is a murder machine. I have one in my AL games in Against the Giants. First turn strikes are usually near 100 HP damage to a giant. What do I do? I add another giant to the encounter so the other players have something to do. I might add the giant at the back to really add some pressure. The character fears melee combat and is usually at the back of the line.

I am not sure this is how you reward playing well.
I think just making sure autosurprise is no option all the time makes it more rewarding.
Don´t forget we are talking about level 6 at least. A time when a wizard has fear or phantasmal force or a bard has hypnotic pattern or tasha´s hideous laughter. All spells that easily take out a giant with about the same accuracy.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Although ranged clearly dominates with this combo, I'm still loving the idea of the melee version. Although I'm generally not a fan of multi-classing, in this case I'd love to some day play:
Gloom Stalker Ranger 4
Assassin Rogue 5
Shadow Monk 11

All I really want out of the Ranger is Dread Ambusher, so don't have to go past level 3 (Monk will get me 2nd attack)
Ranger also gives:
- Umbral Sight (makes it easier to choose Human for an extra Feat)
- Fighting style: I'd go with Dueling because Monk already gets Dex bonus to offhand
- A few spell slots, including Disguise Self, isn't bad

It only needs 3 levels of Rogue to get the alpha strike abilities, but 2 more levels gets you an ASI, an additional Sneak Attack die, and Uncanny Dodge, which is handy.

Monk in general gets you:
Flurry of Blows, for one more attack in the alpha strike
More movement
The ability to go unarmored and unarmed, which helps for surprising victims
Stunning strike, for more crits later in the fight
Shadow Monk gets you Bamf!, of course.
Going all the way to 11 gets both 1d8 damage die (so for a total of 5 attacks doing base 1d8 in the first round, wielding only a dagger in one hand), plus gets you the Shadow Monk's Invisibility.

From there it's either +1 Ranger or Monk to get an ASI, and a Ranger has a bigger hit die, so Ranger it is.

That's a total of 4 ASIs, plus a Feat at level 1. I'd take Alert at 1st level, put two ASIs toward increasing Dex to 20, then choose two from among:
- Lucky
- Mobile (60' base movement, 70' in the first round)
- Savage Attacker (all those attacks, all those dice...good insurance against really unlucky rolls.)
- +2 Wis (which would put Initiative at +13, and increase DC of Stunning Strike)

(Note that I could go Rogue 4/Monk 12 and get one more ASI, but I think I'd rather have Uncanny Dodge and +1d6 Sneak Attack damage)

So on a Surprise round this guy would get:
2 regular attacks doing 1d8 + 7
1 extra attack (Dread Ambusher) doing 2d8 + 7
2 martial arts attacks (Flurry) each doing 1d8 + 5
A sneak attack in there somewhere for 3d6
Doubling all the dice, that's 12d8 + 6d6 + 25 = average of 106...if I did that in my head correctly. Probably more with Savage Attacker.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my reading of the 5e sneak attack ability is it doesn't work with unarmed attacks, including monk attacks.

 

[jgsugden]

While this is a fun idea, all it takes is one obnoxious dwarf in full plate to ruin any chance at surprise...

 

[Guest 6801328]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my reading of the 5e sneak attack ability is it doesn't work with unarmed attacks, including monk attacks.

That's ok: with a dagger in one hand you use your Sneak Attack with one of those attacks.

It does occur to me that a straight up Assassin, at levels 17 and up, still has a (potentially*) vastly better alpha strike than any of these multiclasses. Not as much fun, maybe, but more damage. 11d6 doubled, then Dex added, then doubled again.

*It does require a failed saving throw. Almost worth dipping two levels in Wizard for Portent.

 

[Dausuul]

That's ok: with a dagger in one hand you use your Sneak Attack with one of those attacks.

It does occur to me that a straight up Assassin, at levels 17 and up, still has a (potentially*) vastly better alpha strike than any of these multiclasses. Not as much fun, maybe, but more damage. 11d6 doubled, then Dex added, then doubled again.

*It does require a failed saving throw. Almost worth dipping two levels in Wizard for Portent.

The saving throw requirement is the biggest problem. The value of a devastating alpha strike is to wreck the big boss monster at the start of combat... and big boss monsters are apt to be legendary, especially at 17th level, which means they can shut you down hard. Plus, it's a Con save, which high-level boss monsters are generally quite good at.

But even setting that aside, you actually don't gain much. Let's try a 17th-level gloom stalker build: Ranger 5, fighter 2, rogue 10. Using Action Surge:

First attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d8 (Dread Ambush) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 2d8+1d6+5
Second attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Third attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Fourth attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d8 (Dread Ambush) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 2d8+1d6+5
Fifth attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Sixth attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Sneak attack 1/turn: 5d6

Total: 8d8+11d6+30
Doubling all dice from automatic crits: 16d8+22d6+30 (average 179)

The assassin, meanwhile, gets 2d6 (dual shortswords) + 11d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex). Doubling all dice from autocrits, that's 26d6+5, averaging 96. Doubling that is 192 average damage, a mere 7% gain. And it doesn't come online until 17th level, where the gloom stalker has been wrecking bosses since level 8.

Of course, this is assuming all attacks hit and the target fails its Con save; I haven't yet run the math on how those failure chances affect the total, but I think it favors the gloom stalker.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

While this is a fun idea, all it takes is one obnoxious dwarf in full plate to ruin any chance at surprise...

Pass without trace is not bad at giving even the dwarf baseline competence.
With 8 Dex you always still roll at least 10. Even with disadvantage you can hope not to alert everyone. And you can then always rush ahead. I really like the idea of shadow monk, gloom stalker, assassin. But you can also do it with straight gloomstalker/assassin.

 

[jgsugden]

Pass without trace is not bad at giving even the dwarf baseline competence.
With 8 Dex you always still roll at least 10. Even with disadvantage you can hope not to alert everyone. And you can then always rush ahead. I really like the idea of shadow monk, gloom stalker, assassin. But you can also do it with straight gloomstalker/assassin.

If you have access, it can be useful.... if the fighter does not charge in screaming anyways...