Going back to 3.5... Any ideas to 4e-ify it?

[Remathilis]

After running some 4e games, my group has decided to finish off our 3.5 Eberron game we set down to play 4e (it was 9-10th level).

This is not edition war, we just decided to finish the game in that edition. Considering my groups mostly luke-warm reception of 4e, its fair.

However, there are some elements of 4e I (and the other players) like, and I'm looking a few of them. My concern it breaking the system in some unforseen way. So, below is a few ideas; critiques are welcome.

* Independent CR/XP Rewards (Unearthed Arcana): This one actually deal-breaker for me; I never want to use the CR/EL/XP tables in 3.5 again. So monster CR results in a static amount of XP (CR 1 = 300, etc) and the XP table is enlarged to compensate.

* Faster/Higher Feat Progression (Pathfinder): Set feat progression to 1 every odd level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc). It would increase speed of feats, as well as total feats known (from 7 to 10). Only concern is it breaking certain prestige classes (which have harsh pre-reqs) or making them easy to get into.

* Two Ability Bumps instead of one (Saga/4e) Every 4 levels, you can bump two scores instead of one (but they must be different scores). To compensate, there would by no Inherent bonuses (from Tomes, etc) anymore. Still, it might break down with Stat-booster items and spells.

* 1/2 Sneak attack dice against "immune" foes: Pretty much, if a foe is normally immune to SA, you still get 1/2 your dice (min 1) to damage. Allows rogues to be more effective against undead, golems, and such.

* Threat deals max damage, confirms deal multiplier (4e): If you roll a 20, you follow up as normal. If you don't confirm, you still deal max damage. If you face a foe immune to crits, you automatically deal max damage. (A possible side-rule: monsters ONLY ever deal max damage).

* Two scores, one save (4e): Use the higher of Str/Con for Fort Saves, Dex/Int for Ref, Wis/Cha for Will. AC remains Dex-only. Could be too good for certain classes.

* Fixed HP: d4 classes get 3 hp/level. d6 get 5, d8 get 6, d10 get 8, d12 get 9. (Monsters remain 1/2 HD, but named/classes monsters get improved progression).

* Save-or-Die reduces you to 0 hp, dying rules kick in as normal. Saves on Ressing.

* Negative-con score or negative 10, whichever is higher, before dying. (Possibly replacing it with 4e's death-save mechanic. Does anyone remember where that was on WotC's site?)

* No more massive damage threshold. Gone. No replacement. No DC 15 Fort save if you take 50 damage. Would that mess up spells/combat too much?

* Second Wind (Saga/4e): Once per day, 1/4 hp back, standard action.

I was looking at some mechanical way to replicate a fighter's "combat challenge/mark/stickiness" system in 3.5, but nothing I've thought of has so far not been a "level dip fighter" ability, then move on. Suggestions welcomed.

I was also looking at trying to fix the ability-score yo-yo of stat boosters and penalties.

Is there anything else you can think of (or come up with for your game?) I don't want to tinker with races or classes (hence avoiding Pathfinder) due to the level-range. I'm just looking for ideas that will make my life as a DM easier and capture some of 4e's feel back in 3.5.

Thanks.

 

[Baron Opal]

Independent CR/XP Rewards (Unearthed Arcana)

100% agree. I do this too.

Faster/Higher Feat Progression (Pathfinder): Set feat progression to 1 every odd level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc). It would increase speed of feats, as well as total feats known (from 7 to 10). Only concern is it breaking certain prestige classes (which have harsh pre-reqs) or making them easy to get into.

I have re-written all my prestige classes to require, at most, one feat and two skill minimums. If you want to be a god-archer, you're going to take all the archery feats anyway. I son't see much point in exhaustive pre-requisites.

Two Ability Bumps instead of one (Saga/4e)

I would limit stat bonuses to long-term spells (Bull's Strength 3.0) or items. The point of their removal was to eliminate mid-battle recalculations.

1/2 Sneak attack dice against "immune" foes

One thing I contemplated was that against immune foes rogues had a hampering attack. This was some mischief that let them impose a -1 to attack on the creature for each die of Sneak Attack. This lasted one round. So, a high level rogue might do a little damage to the golem or wrap some rope around its ankles so that it got -5 to attack for one round.

Threat deals max damage, confirms deal multiplier (4e)

I like eliminating the extra roll, so I would just go with max damage.

* Fixed HP: d4 classes get 3 hp/level. d6 get 5, d8 get 6, d10 get 8, d12 get 9.

I use a method inspired by Iron Heroes. Everyone gets 1d4+X, where X is the number to reach the die type from 4. A fighter gets 1d4+6 hit points per level, for example.

No more massive damage threshold. Gone. No replacement. No DC 15 Fort save if you take 50 damage. Would that mess up spells/combat too much?

I never used this myself. I always forgot about it or the damage was enough to kill the critter anyway.
Good luck!

 

[Shroomy]

Here are the 4e death and dying rules adapted to 3.5e.

Also, if you happen to get to epic levels, I would definitely think about introducing epic destinies into 3.5e instead of using the standard epic rules. You can read that article here.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Inspired in part by 4E's defences, I've simplified the rules for saving throws IMC. Base save for all types is 1/2 your level (rounded down). To this is added a base saving throw bonus which is derived from the highest base saving throw bonus from your race (if you have racial hit dice) and class.

Basically, this bonus is:

- +4 if you normally have a single good saving throw (so, frex, a fighter gets a +4 to Fort but nothing else- I also have a table based on creature type);
- +2 if you have two or more good saving throws (so a cleric gets a +2 to Fort and Will not Ref, while a monk gets +2 to each of the three ST categories);
- +0 for your poor saving throw categories.

It may not sound like much but working out saving throws for creatures with multiple classes is now so much easier and the results not too much different to what you get from the books. It makes it so much easier to do the maths in your head. (I also now have a bonus to Fort and penalty to Ref for Large and larger creatures based on +2/-2 per size category, and the reverse for Small and smaller but that's not 4E-inspired).

 

[der_kluge]

I'll preface this by stating that I'm not that familiar with all the details of 4th edition, having chosen to stick with 3.5 myself. That said, here are some ideas for you.

* Independent CR/XP Rewards (Unearthed Arcana): This one actually deal-breaker for me; I never want to use the CR/EL/XP tables in 3.5 again. So monster CR results in a static amount of XP (CR 1 = 300, etc) and the XP table is enlarged to compensate.

Toss XP out the window. I did. Very liberating. Assign quests to the party, and when they finish certain quests, level them up. Very easy. No more "I need 5 XP to level. Let's go open 1 more door." kinds of crap.

* Faster/Higher Feat Progression (Pathfinder): Set feat progression to 1 every odd level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc). It would increase speed of feats, as well as total feats known (from 7 to 10). Only concern is it breaking certain prestige classes (which have harsh pre-reqs) or making them easy to get into.

I do this. Most PrCs can be obtained by 5th level anyway. So, it's hardly game-breaking.

* Two Ability Bumps instead of one (Saga/4e) Every 4 levels, you can bump two scores instead of one (but they must be different scores). To compensate, there would by no Inherent bonuses (from Tomes, etc) anymore. Still, it might break down with Stat-booster items and spells.

Instead of doing this, consider offering stat boosts as treasure. For example, for rescuing the king's daughter, everyone receives a +1 to their charisma. Pretty spiffy, eh?

* 1/2 Sneak attack dice against "immune" foes: Pretty much, if a foe is normally immune to SA, you still get 1/2 your dice (min 1) to damage. Allows rogues to be more effective against undead, golems, and such.

I didn't change sneak attacks in my game because I still believe that sneak attacking things like golems doesn't really make any sense. Still, I allow Criticals to work on *everything*.

* Threat deals max damage, confirms deal multiplier (4e): If you roll a 20, you follow up as normal. If you don't confirm, you still deal max damage. If you face a foe immune to crits, you automatically deal max damage. (A possible side-rule: monsters ONLY ever deal max damage).

Meh. Not that big a deal to me. I like it, though. The problem is that you could crit, and then roll a 1 for damage. So, in those cases, you'd be better off just threatening and not crit'ing.

* Two scores, one save (4e): Use the higher of Str/Con for Fort Saves, Dex/Int for Ref, Wis/Cha for Will. AC remains Dex-only. Could be too good for certain classes.

I don't see this as a problem in 3rd edition.

* Fixed HP: d4 classes get 3 hp/level. d6 get 5, d8 get 6, d10 get 8, d12 get 9. (Monsters remain 1/2 HD, but named/classes monsters get improved progression).

Everyone has an opinion on how to do hit points. I allow PCs to choose average, or roll. If they roll, they can re-roll 1s. It's always in a wizard or sorcerers favor to roll.

* Save-or-Die reduces you to 0 hp, dying rules kick in as normal. Saves on Ressing.

I like this one. Not game-breaking.

* Negative-con score or negative 10, whichever is higher, before dying. (Possibly replacing it with 4e's death-save mechanic. Does anyone remember where that was on WotC's site?)

It's fine. I just use -10, but it rarely comes up in my games.

* No more massive damage threshold. Gone. No replacement. No DC 15 Fort save if you take 50 damage. Would that mess up spells/combat too much?

I don't think I've ever seen massive damage come up in a game, but then I tend to play lower level games. You could axe it very easily.

* Second Wind (Saga/4e): Once per day, 1/4 hp back, standard action.

At 3rd level, I allow clerics to cast cure minor wounds at will. Well, actually, they can choose any 0th level spell to cast at-will, but I also recommend they take cure minor wounds. The only other caveat is that this spell can't heal anyone to more than half their total hit points.

I was looking at some mechanical way to replicate a fighter's "combat challenge/mark/stickiness" system in 3.5, but nothing I've thought of has so far not been a "level dip fighter" ability, then move on. Suggestions welcomed.

It seems like a dumb concept to me, anyway. YMMV.

I was also looking at trying to fix the ability-score yo-yo of stat boosters and penalties.

Not sure what you're talking about here.

Is there anything else you can think of (or come up with for your game?) I don't want to tinker with races or classes (hence avoiding Pathfinder) due to the level-range. I'm just looking for ideas that will make my life as a DM easier and capture some of 4e's feel back in 3.5.

Thanks.

I think 4e's feel is quite different from 3rd edition. I think you'll have a hard time fully doing that. Nor would I recommend you try.

 

[Remathilis]

Not sure what you're talking about here.

The "yo-yo" effect is what happens when your fighter has bull strength cast on him one round and then is struck by a shadow. (score goes up, everything adjusts. Score then goes down, and everything adjusts again, making you recalculate everything.) Pretty much, its the ultimate in bonus-stacking bane.

I debated removing actual ability "increases" for similar effects. For example, Bull's Strength grants a +2 to hit, damage, and Str checks. Bears Endurance grants +2 fort, +2 con checks, and +2 hp/hd. While on paper, it seems like the same thing (net bonuses are the same) your con score isn't actually changing, so recalculating simply becomes a couple temp bonuses.

This would be coupled with the only effects that boost ability scores being stat-boost items (gauntlets of ogre power) and level-adjusted increases (every 4 levels). No more inherents, no more temp enhancments.

The final key would be to somehow re-work poison and ability damage, but I'm not sure how.

In the end, it seems an awful lot of work. While the net benefit would be a removal of ability score bouncing up and down, the work needed to fix it far exceeds what I'd want to put in to a game I'm playing for perhaps a year more...

 

[Psion]

* Independent CR/XP Rewards (Unearthed Arcana): This one actually deal-breaker for me; I never want to use the CR/EL/XP tables in 3.5 again. So monster CR results in a static amount of XP (CR 1 = 300, etc) and the XP table is enlarged to compensate.

I've divorced XP from CR for a long time. I use the guidelines in the DMG (75 xp per hour/encounter per level, IIRC), and then tweak by how difficult I though the encounter was. The encounter need not have a creature to base XP on at all.

* Faster/Higher Feat Progression (Pathfinder): Set feat progression to 1 every odd level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc). It would increase speed of feats, as well as total feats known (from 7 to 10). Only concern is it breaking certain prestige classes (which have harsh pre-reqs) or making them easy to get into.

Been doing this, with mixed reactions. At lower level, it's great. At higher levels, it's too much AFAIAC. Thinking it would work well to front-load extra feats.

* Two Ability Bumps instead of one (Saga/4e) Every 4 levels, you can bump two scores instead of one (but they must be different scores). To compensate, there would by no Inherent bonuses (from Tomes, etc) anymore. Still, it might break down with Stat-booster items and spells.

Haven't tried that, but it sounds good. I'm generous with stats out of the starting gate, so I'm not sure I would do it.

* Threat deals max damage, confirms deal multiplier (4e): If you roll a 20, you follow up as normal. If you don't confirm, you still deal max damage. If you face a foe immune to crits, you automatically deal max damage. (A possible side-rule: monsters ONLY ever deal max damage).

Interesting compromise. I like it. May have to try it myself.

I do, indeed, hate the only max damage on crits in 4e.

* Two scores, one save (4e): Use the higher of Str/Con for Fort Saves, Dex/Int for Ref, Wis/Cha for Will. AC remains Dex-only. Could be too good for certain classes.

I'm dubious. That sounds like it would bolster the dump-statting practice... but at least it would mix up the dump stat!

* Fixed HP: d4 classes get 3 hp/level. d6 get 5, d8 get 6, d10 get 8, d12 get 9. (Monsters remain 1/2 HD, but named/classes monsters get improved progression).

Also being doing something like that for some time. I'll defend random stats to the death, but random HP is something I could entirely live without.

* Save-or-Die reduces you to 0 hp, dying rules kick in as normal. Saves on Ressing.

I prefer the idea of "-(spell level) hp and dying. I'd make death effects less common, though (frex, no bodaks in my game.)

* No more massive damage threshold. Gone. No replacement. No DC 15 Fort save if you take 50 damage. Would that mess up spells/combat too much?

I don't think so; their might be exceptions, but I'm not too fond of combo-building anyways. The massive damage threshold is sort of a holdout anyways. I think it was kept to add a simulationist edge to the falling scenario, but there are too many other effects that can trigger it now. I'd make falling nastier if you are worried about that.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Been doing this, with mixed reactions. At lower level, it's great. At higher levels, it's too much AFAIAC. Thinking it would work well to front-load extra feats.

Front-loading seems also be an idea in 4E - the start of each tier "frontloads" you with one feat. Maybe a progression like 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18? Beyond 9th level, you slow down the progression back to 3E standards.

I do, indeed, hate the only max damage on crits in 4e.

Though this is actually only true for low levels. Once you add magical weapons, you add extra damage dice (and they are rolled, too.)
One could probably import this straight into 3E, too - like +1d6 damage per enhancement bonus - or +BAB or +1d6 per attack from BAB.

I'm dubious. That sounds like it would bolster the dump-statting practice... but at least it would mix up the dump stat!

I suppose the dump stat might move from Cha to Wis for many characters, and it would boost Bards or Sorcerers (which can't be bad ). Wizards also get a better Reflex save which might mitgate some of their weaknesses. (Ever seen what happens when a Wizard is caught in 3 Fireballs in a round? Though admittedly, failure or success seems irrelevant on the saves then - damage is just too much...)

I don't think so; their might be exceptions, but I'm not too fond of combo-building anyways. The massive damage threshold is sort of a holdout anyways. I think it was kept to add a simulationist edge to the falling scenario, but there are too many other effects that can trigger it now. I'd make falling nastier if you are worried about that.

1d10 damage in 4E - should also work in 3E, of course the deadliness of a mere 10 ft fall might be a little... surprising at low levels.

 

[Psion]

1d10 damage in 4E - should also work in 3E, of course the deadliness of a mere 10 ft fall might be a little... surprising at low levels.

Heh. I'm a fan of making fall hurt more at all levels.

One rule I was bouncing around for a while was to add extra damage dice to all falls equal to the original damage dice, maxing out at 1 damage dice/char level. The idea being if HP represents some measure of fighting ability, that's nice, but you can't exactly fight a fall...

Example:

A 1st level character and a 5th level character make a 30 ft. fall. The first level character takes 4d6 damage (3d6, plus up to 3d6, limited to 1d6 due to level.) The 5th level character takes 6d6 damage (3d6 plus all the extra damage because they are 3rd level or higher...)

 

[Remathilis]

1d10 damage in 4E - should also work in 3E, of course the deadliness of a mere 10 ft fall might be a little... surprising at low levels.

Oh yeah. Consider that yoinked. ;-)

EDIT: I might split the difference and go d8.