Grim Tales + Black Company = Big Fun!

[Old One]

In most cases, I think your Con score is the best way to go. It also makes the Increased Damage Threshold feat worth taking (and useful). If you start adding armor and level to your MDT, there isn't much use for a MDT at all.

I really think it depends on the flavor of the campaign, what type of opponents the PCs will be facing and how you have the rules mesh together. If you are going to be facing primarily human-type oppenents and using FDH with conversion coming before an MDT check...then I think CON is probably fine...since it will probably only come into play as a result of a critical hit or from an opponent with a couple of levels of sneak attack damage.

If, however, the PCs are going to be facing big/strong high damage critters routinely and/or you want the PCs to get a bit of a bonus from increasing in level, then CON + 1/2 level or CON + level/3 or 4 or 5. A PC with 12 CON would then have an MDT of 12 at 1st level and 17 at 20th (using a CON + level/4). To make book keeping easy, the PC's MDT bumps up whenever they get a Stat bump for level.

In a fantasy milieu...FDH makes armor immensely valuable, since an MDT can KO even the baddest fighter.

I am still trying to figure out whether I want to use the BCCS version...which has one effect for blowing the MDT save by 5 or less (immediately becomes disabled) or by 6 or more (immediately begins dying and taking CON damage) or stick with the GT version. The save also scales in BCCS with DC 10 + 1/5 points of damage inflicted. I am leaning towards wrapping all of these together and using the following:

Faded Glory MDT Rule: MDT equals CON + level/4 (round down). Armor conversion applied before MDT check (FDH). MDT check forces Fort Save with DC = 10 + 1/5 points of damage inflicted. Failure by 5 or less causes victim to drop to 0 hit points and become disabled. Failure by 6 or more causes victim to drop to -1 hit points and begin dying.

Thoughts?

~ OO

 

[Old One]

The rules have actually saved their bacon more than once as the stealthy Fast hero has been able to take out guards with fast silent kills (MDT save on all successfully damaging strikes during the surprise round).

Heap,

Can you elaborate on this a bit...and was this from BCCS or Grim Tales...on the road with no books in front of me?

~ OO

 

[Fenris]

Heap,

Can you elaborate on this a bit...and was this from BCCS or Grim Tales...on the road with no books in front of me?

~ OO

As I recall this was one of Heap's house rules. Please correct me if I am wrong Heap.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

It's a concept taken from conversations held before I got the BCCS book in hand. I'm not sure if it's in the BCCS book as I use it, as I honestly put it into play before I got the book. I think they do it a little differently.

Anyway, the way it works is: During the surprise round, all successful attacks cause MDT saves. Which sounds very lethal (and it can be). But I have a whole passel of other rules that come into play here, as well.

One: MDT saves are DC 10 + 1/2 Damage. Because of my harsh encumbrance rules and the fact that Sneak Attack is such a high-level ability in GT, most stealy fellows seem to favor a knife/dagger for their wet-work, so the average save is somewhere in the realm of DC 11.

Two: I make Listen and Move Silently checks before deciding on surprise. A surprise round happens only when one side or the other is truly surprised. If you had to troop up two flights of stairs in plate, the guards aren't surprised. If you had to kick down a door, THAT happens on the surprise round, so you'd better hope Smashdor The Mighty brought it down with the first kick or they won't be surprised. Surprise, then, is usually reserved for the specialized rogue-like character who travels light and attacks from darkness.

Three: I don't roll initiative. We deal cards for all of our games, anymore. I've found it speeds up play dramatically (as nobody has to write down their initiative, it's right there). Each person is dealt one card for each 3 points of init bonus (or penalty). So, for instance, Bleda The Sailor has a 16 Dex (+3), so he recieves 2 cards during the initiative phase and takes the highest. Masterful Assasin Guy has Dex 18 and Improved Init (+8 bonus) so he is dealt 3 cards and can take the highest. The Incredible Lunk, on the other hand, has a massive 4 Dex (-3) and gets two cards, but must choose the lowest. (Taking the low card has occured once, when my assasins got the jump on some party members with Curare poison and one guy was slumping around a 2 Dex for a while). Certain cards do certain things: The Joker always goes first in a round and nets a "Free Virtual Action Point" for use in the round. The Suicide King goes on King init but all d20 rolls have a -2 penalty for the round. (I let people opt the other card if they're getting two cards). This really only comes up when I want to make for a dramatic moment and so I say the element of surprise was blown at the last possible moment (the last Move Silently check was bungled, but within partial charge distance, say) ... if the surprisee wins initiative, he is prepared and the stealth attack is ruined. I COULD say that it works on any flatfooted foe, but I've never liked the idea that The Incredible Lunk, acting last in the round, has been so totally flabbergasted for six entire seconds that he's going to get his throat slit or stabbed in the chest without recourse. Call it my "He Who Striketh First" rule, I guess. Dealing cards has some strange effects on initiative. Up until Dex 16, everybody has the same single card ... that 16 Dex provides a huge improvement, and alot of people shoot for it if they want to surprise people. Dex 14 and Improved Initiative works for this, as well, but I haven't seen anybody jump on it. A guy with 16 Dex gets the jump on a guy with 14 Dex very often.

This has saved their bacon before because Bleda (our fast and stealthy bloke) has several times lead the way into touchy situations and has been able to eliminate sentries and guards silently and quickly. Without this sort of rule, most situations like this (which are a fantasy and military drama standard) turn into flat-out combats or, somehow, the guy with the greatsword makes for better assasinating than the guy with the knife.

This has come back on the heroes as well and so far the players have liked it. Of course they've all got alternate characters and I've never put them in a situation where somebody was going to kill them outright if they failed the save. Drop them, capture them ... save them and eat them later, perhaps, but heroes need to be captured from time to time so there can be rescue missions.



--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If, however, the PCs are going to be facing big/strong high damage critters routinely and/or you want the PCs to get a bit of a bonus from increasing in level, then CON + 1/2 level or CON + level/3 or 4 or 5.

Where's this CON + 1/2 level concept coming from? You're double dipping here, too.

A character's level is already taken into account by his higher Fortitude save. There's no need to have his level affect his MDT as well.

You guys are a bunch of nancies.


Wulf

 

[Old One]

Where's this CON + 1/2 level concept coming from? You're double dipping here, too.

A character's level is already taken into account by his higher Fortitude save. There's no need to have his level affect his MDT as well.

You guys are a bunch of nancies.


Wulf

*Waves his petticoats at Wulf and does the nancy dance*

Hah!

The CON + 1/2 level is coming from BCCS (which is actually CON + Level...which is way to high, IMO). I think it may be floating around in a couple of other sources as well. I think one of the reasons BCCS is so generous is the lack of real magical healing...everything is lethal to non-lethal conversion.

~ OO

 

[Henry]

Where's this CON + 1/2 level concept coming from? You're double dipping here, too.

A character's level is already taken into account by his higher Fortitude save. There's no need to have his level affect his MDT as well.

You guys are a bunch of nancies.


Wulf

So are RJ and Owen, too, in that case. In the Black Company book, they figure MDT = CON + level.

The main reason is if I want the outside chance for an MDT, rather than have it happen often. Half the party is going to have a CON score of 13 or less, and a gun or a fighter with Oomph is going to hit 13 damage easily, especially since these sad sacks also usually have the low Fort saves. Now, if a deadly game is what I'm shooting for (a la Modern/GT) then CON score as MDT fits the bill perfectly - even better, making it = 10 across the board like Call of Cthulhu d20.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The main reason is if I want the outside chance for an MDT, rather than have it happen often.

In my opinion, you get the most dramatic tension from more frequent, but fairly easy MDT saves, than you do from very rare, but almost impossible to make MDT saves.

Folks seem to want to bump up the Threshold, but then also factor the damage done into the DC of the save. This leads to a situation where the save, once triggered, is a forgone conclusion (failure). Some folks might call this bad design, and it's why you often find GM's who go down this path constantly tinkering with the formula to get it 'just right.' It's not the formula that's the problem, it's the approach.

The counter argument, of course, is that it's just as bad to have success as a forgone conclusion. The ideal DC should be set where a low (but non-"1") roll can be overcome with an action point to save the PC.

The dramatic tension is increased by forcing this life-and-death decision over the expenditure of this very valuable resource.

If every PC at the table has to spend an action point at least once per game session to avoid a scrape with death, that's about perfect.

 

[Henry]

That's a take on it I don't remember hearing before, Wulf, but it's a thought-provoking one. I can't recall right now -does Grim Tales set the fort save at 10 or 15?

The only thing I didn't like about DC 15 in Modern was that the poor-fort and middling-con people (basically anyone who is not tough or strong) have a darned good chance of blowing the roll (about 30% to 40%?) of the time, even with the action point. Then, as levels got higher, MDTs become a joke, hence some people's desire to tie damage amount into the save.

Above 10th level or so, everybody's failing it 1 out of 20 times, with very little tension. Admittedly, that's still that 1 out of 20, but it tends to be less climactic in my experiences. Maybe I'm just not looking at it correctly.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

That's a take on it I don't remember hearing before, Wulf, but it's a thought-provoking one. I can't recall right now -does Grim Tales set the fort save at 10 or 15?

DC15, IIRC.

The only thing I didn't like about DC 15 in Modern was that the poor-fort and middling-con people (basically anyone who is not tough or strong) have a darned good chance of blowing the roll (about 30% to 40%?) of the time, even with the action point.

These people are supposed to be fragile. And if you don't want to play a smart-but-fragile character, but rather a smart-but-durable character, pick up Great Fortitude. It's not as if feats are hard to come by.

Then, as levels got higher, MDTs become a joke, hence some people's desire to tie damage amount into the save.

Why then the tendency to tie the threshold itself to level?

From a dramatic tension point of view, you are still better off forcing them to, "Dear God, don't roll a 1..." than not having them roll at all because you've inflated the MDT itself to the point where the Save never comes up.

Above 10th level or so, everybody's failing it 1 out of 20 times, with very little tension.

I disagree. Players who have nurtured a character to 10th level and beyond feel rather a lot of tension over a 1 in 20 chance of failing that roll. (Full disclosure: GT recommends that a failed roll drop the PC to dying, not dead.)

Do you really sweat a saving throw less when you can only fail if you roll a 1? That's not my experience.

Admittedly, that's still that 1 out of 20, but it tends to be less climactic in my experiences. Maybe I'm just not looking at it correctly.

I think it depends a great deal on whether you are playing a one-shot weekend game with pre-gen 10th level characters, or whether you've successfully nurtured a character from 1st to 10th level or higher.

But that's a completely different dynamic that has nothing to do with MDT or the save DC.