[Hackmaster] To anyone who's ever been slightly interested in trying this game out...

[1Mac]

In general Hackmaster seems to fiddly for my tastes, but I'm intrigued by the "countdown" initiative system. From the combat example it sounds like, where in DnD you would get a move and a standard action on your turn, in Hackmaster you get one or the other. Then, depending on your action, that might push your order in the count further back or further up. Is that basically it?

Also, how does initiative work exactly, and what's the "normal" number of counts between turns? That wasn't entirely clear from the combat example.

 

[Agamon]

Also, how does initiative work exactly, and what's the "normal" number of counts between turns? That wasn't entirely clear from the combat example.

For initiative, you roll a die (usually d12, often modified) and start acting on that count (there are exceptions, such as being alerted by others or getting attacked before your count comes up).

Count between turns depends on the weapon or action you take. Quicker weapons let you go again sooner, slower weapons are slower.

 

[Agamon]

Oh, to the poster who said shields are "broken." I would say they're valuable. When your shields get shattered (they do break) and you can take damage by blocking a blow you might realize there's a trade off in using them.

Yeah, I agree with this. The shield mechanic is different and takes some head-wrapping and actual play to grok, but it works.

 

[TanisFrey]

In general Hackmaster seems to fiddly for my tastes, but I'm intrigued by the "countdown" initiative system. From the combat example it sounds like, where in DnD you would get a move and a standard action on your turn, in Hackmaster you get one or the other. Then, depending on your action, that might push your order in the count further back or further up. Is that basically it?

Also, how does initiative work exactly, and what's the "normal" number of counts between turns? That wasn't entirely clear from the combat example.

It depends on the weapon being used and the user skill and what penalizes from armor he has.
example a player has made a fighter who likes long swords. The base speed on a long sword is 10 (8). The fighter has specialized in long sword speed twice and has the speed talent for long sword. His attack speed is 10-2-1 = 7 (5). At first level level he can only purchase Leather armor (which has no effect on weapon speed) and a small shield.

By 5 level he spends his BP to increase his specialization to 4 speed and now can afford Chain mail and a large shield. Chain mail is the lightest of the heave armors and has a speed penalty of 2. So, he now attacks every 10-4-1+2 = 7 (5). Over all he attacks at the same speed but the chain mail protects him better than the leather armor. Leather armor gave him a DR of 2 and the Chain mail armor gives him DR of 5. The Shield DR goes from 4 for the small shield to 6 for the large shield. The change in shield also improves his cover value against missiles from 19 for a small shield to 11 for a large shield.

When someone shoots you with a missile weapon you roll attack vs missile defense then check cover value to see if a hit occurs. The attack roll die is determined by weapon type's effective range (the farther from you foe the smaller the attack die you use for the attack) and add in any specialization and other modifiers you have. The defender rolls d20 if moving or d12 if standing still (no additions unless you have taken the doge talent). If the attack roll exceeds the defender then you check cover. The defender rolls a d20 and see if it exceeds his shield cover value.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Oh, to the poster who said shields are "broken." I would say they're valuable. When your shields get shattered (they do break) and you can take damage by blocking a blow you might realize there's a trade off in using them.

Yeah, I agree with this. The shield mechanic is different and takes some head-wrapping and actual play to grok, but it works.

Oh, I get how they work. But counting towards defense and as DR seems a tad much; either make it harder to hit, or to do damage, not both. The deciding factor in our game (and granted, it was a one-shot) came down to whether or not you had a shield equipped.

 

[Revil Fox]

Oh, I get how they work. But counting towards defense and as DR seems a tad much; either make it harder to hit, or to do damage, not both. The deciding factor in our game (and granted, it was a one-shot) came down to whether or not you had a shield equipped.

Except having a shield actually makes you easier to hit. Sort of. It does increase your defense bonus, but that's only because you're actively trying to get the shield between yourself and your attacker. If you manage to beat the attack roll then the attack simply hits your shield, meaning the attacker still does damage, and if he does enough to break through your shield DR and your armor DR you start taking damage. If he does enough, you'll likely have to roll a save to see if they did enough to shatter your shield. If the attack roll is higher than your defense roll, the attack gets by the shield and you don't apply the shield DR to that damage.

Honestly, it doesn't come up all that much in the early levels because you're mostly fighting things that can't do a ton of damage. But when you start fighting bigger, stronger monsters...

Also, in the Advanced game if you beat the attacker's roll by more than ten they miss you and your shield entirely. If you beat them by ten or less then they hit your shield and roll damage vs. the shield as normal. If they beat you then the attack gets past your shield and the DR from the shield doesn't count against the attack.

 

[Agamon]

Oh, I get how they work. But counting towards defense and as DR seems a tad much; either make it harder to hit, or to do damage, not both. The deciding factor in our game (and granted, it was a one-shot) came down to whether or not you had a shield equipped.

You're actually easier to hit with a shield, getting in the way of the blow with the shield to block it, rather than getting out of the way.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Except having a shield actually makes you easier to hit. Sort of. It does increase your defense bonus, but that's only because you're actively trying to get the shield between yourself and your attacker. If you manage to beat the attack roll then the attack simply hits your shield, meaning the attacker still does damage, and if he does enough to break through your shield DR and your armor DR you start taking damage. If he does enough, you'll likely have to roll a save to see if they did enough to shatter your shield. If the attack roll is higher than your defense roll, the attack gets by the shield and you don't apply the shield DR to that damage.

Honestly, it doesn't come up all that much in the early levels because you're mostly fighting things that can't do a ton of damage. But when you start fighting bigger, stronger monsters...

Also, in the Advanced game if you beat the attacker's roll by more than ten they miss you and your shield entirely. If you beat them by ten or less then they hit your shield and roll damage vs. the shield as normal. If they beat you then the attack gets past your shield and the DR from the shield doesn't count against the attack.

Sure, but you're only rolling half-damage and still counting full DR on a pseudo-miss. The orcs with a medium shield and leather armor (net +8 to defense on a d20, 8DR) were shrugging off everything except the 1-in-8 exploding dice. I think our last combat went 400+ seconds of game time because the sole remaining orc and the cleric with the flail were whiffing/soaking 90% of the time, and when they did get hit it was for a point or two.

I'd have been happier with a straight-up bonus to the defense roll. Or at least doing halving the damage after the roll, so you at least had the normal chance of exploding damage.

 

[Hard8Staff]

Sure, but you're only rolling half-damage and still counting full DR on a pseudo-miss. The orcs with a medium shield and leather armor (net +8 to defense on a d20, 8DR) were shrugging off everything except the 1-in-8 exploding dice. I think our last combat went 400+ seconds of game time because the sole remaining orc and the cleric with the flail were whiffing/soaking 90% of the time, and when they did get hit it was for a point or two.

I'd have been happier with a straight-up bonus to the defense roll. Or at least doing halving the damage after the roll, so you at least had the normal chance of exploding damage.

Yeah, that can happen once in a while when you don't use the fatigue rules or morale rules. but generally not against orcs -- orcs have a +2 to damage bonus and a small shield absorbs 4/medium 6.

Generally, the party fighter might have a +2 DMG from specialization, +2 DMG from strength and possibly (after 1st level or three) a +1 or +2 weapon. So hitting a shield would be more like d8+5 vs shield DR of 4/6. Thus even 'misses' can hurt.

 

[Hard8Staff]

note also, if you really hate opponents with shields, there are several weapons in the new PHB designed or at least better equipped to smash them.