Harassment in gaming

[Elf Witch]

I am listening. So far in this thread we have [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION]'s experience of being groped by a Hugo-award winning writer in the late 1970s, and [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION]'s experience of rape by PC proxy in the early 1990s. Did I miss anything?

I went to Comic Con a few months ago with a friend of mine (granted, this is the only con I've ever been to). I didn't notice anything I would call harassment. I asked her yesterday in response to this thread if she experienced or witnessed any harassment then, just to be sure. She said no, it was a great time and she didn't have any problems at all.

Why be skeptical? For at least two reasons:

1) In case the person making the claim has an ulterior motive, like Emily Garland (author of article in the OP). She has a vendetta against Wyrd Miniatures. I know you consider it gauche to actually read up on something before forming an opinion, so you'll have to trust me on this. She attacks Wyrd in her blog post. She includes their phone number and asks people to call and complain to them.

2) These claims themselves turn women away from the hobby! [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] mentioned upthread that she thinks she would enjoy gaming at a con but doesn't want to go because of what she's heard about them. That sucks to the extent that she's been mislead.


The agenda of removing sexist content from the game...

One one hand, I think it's pretty crass to co-opt existing IP to further any kind of sociopolitical agenda. Their only agenda should be to make a great game that entertains fans of the series. If you want new fans, make new IP.

However it depends to what degree and by whose definition the content is sexist. I haven't played Baldur's Gate for many years but I don't recall anything striking me as sexist.

If there were a quest in the game that involves the player abducting, assaulting and destroying innocent women, or a companion who hates women and harangues the PC on how they're evil and cannot be trusted, that would be outrageous and I'd support its removal from the game in all expansions and re-releases.

But a female character who flirts with men? That's sexist content? Not by any reasonable definition.
The context of the joke was her lobbying to reduce the the breast size of female Wyrd miniatures. The biological purpose of mammary glands is to feed babies. Breasts are a secondary sex characteristic.

Of course they're literally possible, but the less likely it is that they occurred, the less we ought to be afraid of those scenarios occurring again.

It's not irrelevant to the interests of the forum! People should know that it's by no means proven that Wyrd was complicit in her harassment. They make tabletop games and this is a tabletop games discussion forum.

(Just to repeat, I'm not denying that she received threats and that that's terrible).

Two years ago my friend 13 year old was groped at con so this is not something that only happened years ago.

I am very happy that your female friend did not experience any harassment at Comic con and enjoyed herself. That is what we all want.

But harassment is still happening at cons.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-sexual-harassment-at-comic-con-not-so-comic/


http://mashable.com/2014/10/15/new-york-comic-con-harassment/#pYMOkL9YsPqJ

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think there's nothing wrong with making a game, finding that the vast majority of your fans are men, and then not really caring to change that.

You should try F.A.T.A.L.

I think game designers are prone to superiority complexes and delusions of grandeur, and feminist critics prey on this.

Really?

I support the creation of games for (and preferably by) women and the LGBTQI community. I'd be interested in playing them.

You should check out the Wraethu RPG.

I don't generally like the idea of co-opting an established game and changing it to make it more appealing to women and LGBTQ

How exactly does one do that?

 

[Libramarian]

Emily Garland (author of the blog post in OP) admits to at least embellishing some of the stories in her article here:

The question of whether Garland's account is believable has led to heated debate in reblogs of her post. Garland clarified that her intention in documenting these recollections was to evoke the experience of each incident.

"I wrote the flashbacks the way I did so that people who have not survived these events can know how they alter you permanently," she said. "I wrote the flashbacks as I [continue to] experience them — as PTSD flashbacks that interrupt your life and erode your sense of safety and normalcy. I refuse to apologize for my trauma not meeting some 's arbitrary credibility test. I was there. They weren't."

While Garland's depiction of the events she describes may sound over the top to some, Garland emphasizes that that's kind of the whole point.

 

[MechaPilot]

I am listening. So far in this thread we have [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION]'s experience of being groped by a Hugo-award winning writer in the late 1970s, and [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION]'s experience of rape by PC proxy in the early 1990s. Did I miss anything?

I went to Comic Con a few months ago with a friend of mine (granted, this is the only con I've ever been to). I didn't notice anything I would call harassment. I asked her yesterday in response to this thread if she experienced or witnessed any harassment then, just to be sure. She said no, it was a great time and she didn't have any problems at all.

Why be skeptical? For at least two reasons:

1) In case the person making the claim has an ulterior motive, like Emily Garland (author of article in the OP). She has a vendetta against Wyrd Miniatures. I know you consider it gauche to actually read up on something before forming an opinion, so you'll have to trust me on this. She attacks Wyrd in her blog post. She includes their phone number and asks people to call and complain to them.

2) These claims themselves turn women away from the hobby! [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] mentioned upthread that she thinks she would enjoy gaming at a con but doesn't want to go because of what she's heard about them. That sucks to the extent that she's been mislead.

Who is it you would say who has misled me? I do hope you don't think it was the material linked to in the OP. That inflammatory and overly general piece only caused me to stop and ask questions about how bad the issue is in those kind of public gatherings. I have my own experience, plus the experience [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] related, plus the experience Umbran related earlier that a friend had shared with him, and the word of a trusted and respected friend (who is something of a habitual people-watcher) who attends cons and says that harassment and assault is a problem that is significant. In his own words, "particularly at gaming cons and anime cons."

There is also the OP of the We're All Gamers Together thread. That OP links to the same material as the OP of this thread, but the OP of the We're All Gamers Together thread is not simply parroting the material linked to. Instead, the OP of that thread claims to have collected stories of harassment and assault from female con-attendees on his own.

And now I have the articles that [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] linked to as well.

It's not as if I think that all, or even most, gamers are bad. The vast majority of the gamers who I've met and gamed with have been decent people. Even most of the people who I have disagreed with (at times vehemently) on gaming forums have not been the type to spout vulgarities, or sexual threats, or to proudly post examples of partaking in player or character sexual assault or harassment. But the truth is that even though I am not pretty and I don't cosplay (which should reduce my chances of being assaulted, though not necessarily of being harassed), I am a woman, raised with the rules that we were all raised with, and subject to the same wrong cultural judgments about somehow deserving what we got when we violate those rules.

Let's face a very simple reality, when people I know and respect tell me that I will probably have to pony up my dignity and my right to go unmolested if I attend a con, I would be taking a significant risk if I ignored their advice and went anyway. And if I did go and was harassed or assaulted, there would inevitably be the judgement of, "well, you knew what you were walking into when you went."

 

[Libramarian]

You should try F.A.T.A.L.

You should check out the Wraethu RPG.

Those both look terrible. I think you're trolling me!

Really?

I was being a bit arch in saying that, but I think there's a kernel of truth there. When films receive feminist criticism sometimes the writer or director will say something to the effect of "K it's just a movie get a life" but I've never seen a game designer respond in that way. They tend to take it very seriously and show little awareness of how inconsequential their game is within the broader cultural conversation.

How exactly does one do that?

Consider the new Baldur's Gate expansion discussed upthread. They changed the NPC companion Safana's personality from that of a woman who flirts with men to one who mocks and bullies them*. This can't be justified as the removal of sexist content from the series. I can see this as a move to make the series "more inclusive", but only if that phrase in this case essentially means "we thought women and non-heterosexual men would like this more"

*At this point I have to repeat that I haven't played this game myself. I'm relying on reviews. Like most people I thought the controversy was simply about the inclusion of a trans character in the game.
[MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] I said to the extent you've been misled, not sure if you have or not. I find your stance rather risk averse but not altogether unreasonable.

 

[PurpleDragonKnight]

I'd like to add that a female character has no STR penalties. You can make a STR 20 human female fighter at level 1. That's proof the game itself isn't biased. Anything outside of that is situational, conjecture and depends on the actual players at the table.

Moreover, some women do enjoy showing off their charms. There's a whole beauty industry out there I heard...

 

[Dire Bare]

The real problem is not women joining the game; the problem is that the proportion of real nerds is decreasing.

As a game becomes mainstream, it attracts more people from the middle of the bell curve, and you must now deal with idiots, whereas before, be they boyz or galz, you only had to deal with smart, mostly respectful and studious people.

Good grief. There is no such thing as "real" versus "fake" nerds/geeks/gamers/etc. Nerdy stuff certainly has gained a wider appeal since my middle school days, and more folks have joined the hobby, but "real nerds"? Absolute BS.

And the idea that back in the day we were all homely, misunderstood geniuses who were good at math and now our hobby is awash with good-looking, but vapid, hipsters is ludicrous at best.

Back in the 80s, I gamed with some socially awkward, homely, misunderstood geniuses who were good at math. Today, as a middle-school teacher, I have students who are D&D fans who are socially awkward, homely, misunderstood geniuses who are good at math. Back in the 80s I gamed with some complete morons who had trouble with simple addition & subtraction, and some of my gamer-students also struggle with basic math. The demographics I have observed over my life, anecdotal as it is, haven't really changed much.

I do have some students today who are socially awkward, bright, good in school, and who feel marginalized by the larger population of kids. One of the appeals of D&D (Pathfinder in my school, actually) is to escape that marginalization and find a place they feel they belong . . . same as it was for me when I was a middle-school nerd. But when those bright kids start acting like they are superior to the other kids, start mocking and harassing those who "don't belong" in their "nerd club", I call them out on their harassing and discriminatory behavior . . . just like I DIDN'T, but should have, when I was a kid.

I automatically dismiss opinions laced with terms like "SJW", but I also automatically dismiss opinions laced with terms like "real nerds" or the mythical "fake geek girl". Sometimes I felt that way when I was in middle school, but then I grew up.

 

[MechaPilot]

I'd like to add that a female character has no STR penalties. You can make a STR 20 human female fighter at level 1. That's proof the game itself isn't biased. Anything outside of that is situational, conjecture and depends on the actual players at the table.

Moreover, some women do enjoy showing off their charms. There's a whole beauty industry out there I heard...

I would agree with you that the game itself isn't biased. There are no stat or class or other such restrictions based on gender.

However, the beauty industry doesn't really exist because some women enjoy showing off their charms. The western beauty industry could probably be traced back to (or before) the time when aristocrats of both genders men were wearing powdered wigs and makeup, and the beauty industry generally profits from making women feel like their natural looks are inferior, and that they need cosmetics to look acceptable. This is reinforced by the various beauty images seen in film, marketing, fashion magazines, etc.

Also, I think most people want to look good. I'm not exactly pretty, but I do like to buy clothes that flatter me or hide my faults instead of showing them off (which is not always easy for a big girl to find). I think men also like to wear clothes that make them look good, or at least don't put their faults on parade. I can't tell you how many men I've seen with well-defined arms who wear sleeveless or short-sleeved shirts.

 

[Dire Bare]

Geeks and Nerds tend to be... not socially apt, especially not around the opposite sex. Staring, awkward and inappropriate comments are to be expected, especially in the 9-21 year age bracket. Sure you can say "They should be better!", but if the were, they wouldn't be the social awkward geeks/nerds in the first place. But behavior that goes beyond gawking at women to touching without consent, sexual assault and rape are... Inexcusable! That's not a geek/nerd/gaming problem that's a generic problem in society, that happens in all social and hobby groups. Even though we all would like to think it doesn't happen in gaming, it just would surprise me if it didn't happen in gaming, but just in clubbing, frats, sports, etc.

Like many here, I've been gaming for a long time. I'm in my mid-40s now and I started in elementary school. And, I've encountered my fair share of socially awkward folks who were young, and socially awkward folks who were older. At many times in my life, I've been the socially awkward one.

That does not excuse bad behavior.

I'm a middle school teacher, and I see a LOT of bad behavior in my students. They say and do a lot of horrible things to each other, and they don't react with much resilience (or "grit" as is more buzzworthy today) when subjected to it themselves. A large part of why they do this is because they are teenagers awash in hormones, and subject to poor examples from mass media, poor parenting, and peer pressure. I understand why some of them do the horrible things they do.

But that doesn't excuse their bad behavior.

In my school, and I'm sure every other public, private, and charter school across the nation, the adult staff works hard at modeling good behavior, calling out bad behavior when it happens, and enacting consequences for bad behavior . . . all in an effort to teach our young charges that being kind, courteous, respectful, and to not harass or discriminate against anyone "different" is the right choice. It's an uphill battle sometimes. But what is the alternative?

I act they same way with adults, in my gaming circles and elsewhere in my adult life. Because sadly, many of those teenagers who got into the habits of bad behavior carry that with them in adulthood, despite the best efforts of their teachers, coaches, and (hopefully) parents. I don't excuse bad behavior, regardless of the background of the actor, I try and model good behavior myself, I try to call out bad behavior when I see it (even if it means making others uncomfortable by not staying quiet), and when I am in a position of authority I enact consequences for bad behavior.

Bad behavior is very human and goes back to the dawn of time and we will never truly be free of it. And many folks who exhibit bad behavior themselves were victims of it earlier in life, or grew up thinking it was acceptable. But it is never acceptable, and we must never give up the struggle to correct it. And while we'll never truly eliminate it, we can reduce it's prominence and influence in our society.

 

[Cergorach]

But that doesn't excuse their bad behavior.

I'm not saying bad behavior should be excused, not at all! But social awkward is often seen as bad behavior, and often taken as offensive. The staring is often more like a deer staring into the truck headlights that is about to run it over, on the other hand, I'm sure that some are certainly leering. The inappropriate comments are often of the caliber "That sounded way better in my head! I should shut up now! Can I make myself any smaller or invisible...".

I can totally see why many girls/boys react negatively to the awkward nerd/geek, very few boys or girls are 'wise' in that regard at that age, or any age for that matter...

But the article isn't about 'bad' behavior, it's about explicit criminal behavior: sexual assault/rape/dead threats. Those things go way, way beyond bad behavior.

The Aboriginal woman that went to buy a miniature is just a sad situation. Things to never say to a customer, the sad thing is that those kinda folks work all over the world, such positions are often filled by the cheapest labor available. And let's be honest, who wants to work at a game store but a gamer, for all those math nerds, there's just as many morons in the gaming 'cult'...