Harassment in gaming

[Springheel]

Sexism is very much a part of geek hobbies.

I would argue that sexism (and racism, and homophobia, and physical threats and general out-and-out assholish behaviour) is very much a part of ANY hobby with a strong online presence.

You don't have to understand much psychology to know why internet chatter can often be much more aggressive and unpleasant than face to face communication.

 

[Taneras]

Are you serious that you don't understand the difference between sexism and not liking green beans? Your not liking green beans does not effect anyone but you. Being a sexist jerk effects the women you come in contact with it shapes your views on where we should be allowed and what we should be allowed to do.

Sexism in real life does that, sexism within a game doesn't affect anyone because pixels aren't people. Unless it can be shown that sexism within video games influences people to be more sexist outside of video games (in real life) then yes its simply a matter of taste. You might as well be a religious person arguing that portraying demons in a positive light in video games isn't acceptable. Some people don't want a violent game. Some people don't want a game that has sexism. Some people don't want a game with spirits or demons as main characters. Some people don't mind some of those elements. At that point its down to preference.

Now, if games did influence people's behaviors then all bets would be off and there would be an objective, detectable, harm befalling society and you'd be right, we'd need to address this issue past the current "well that's just not my taste" situation.

I think if men were being groped and were unhappy about it and spoke up most women would not demand proof and since many of us have faced behavior like this we would have some empathy. What I can't figure out is why you think this is a female only issue. No one and I repeat no one deserves to be bullied and harassed. It is not just women being harassed but POC and LGBTQ as well.

There are plenty of guys who believe and there are plenty of women asking questions as well. Please don't try and turn this into a gender war.

To be fair I've only just now entered the conversation and the quotes I've dealt with so far have only been related to complaints women have had. I never said that this is just about women, I understand that there are other complaints by other people as well.

 

[Taneras]

So take a look at the evidence then. The number of women and times they've claimed harassment (even just is cosplay alone) versus the number of times it has been determined a man was falsely accused by a woman for harassment. What's the bigger number?

I have to ask why the difference in standards... Women simply need to claim, but men need to actually, somehow, prove that they didn't do it?

I think it says a lot that you need hard evidence before you're willing to give all these women the benefit of the doubt, but have no problem giving it to the guys.

Libramarian just said that "here is a third option to belief and denial: skepticism. One is skeptical when they're withholding belief but open to changing their mind as further evidence comes to light.". Nothing about that statement says lets automatically believe the guys, or even lets automatically believe the bully's story. They're suggesting that we withhold belief entirely. And that doesn't mean don't take action. Lets say its a sexual/racial/whatever harassment claim about a DM at a specific table, it could be suggested that the person making the complaint try and switch groups, or, if the other party members agree with them about the harassment, the party find a different DM. After, remind all the groups in your shop/event that this sort of behavior isn't suppose to be happening. Then keep an eye on that DM and see if any other persons or groups have that issue. To me, based off of someones word alone, you shouldn't ban the DM or ignore the person making the complaint.

On the contrary though DEFCON 1, that's exactly what you're doing, just swap the genders around. Please reread what you've typed, surely you can see the difference in standards you've placed on the genders. No, you didn't make this about victims and bullies, you made this about men and women and set different bars for each. Ironically your post is guilty of what you've accused Libramarian of.

 

[Springheel]

The statistics quoted in the OP are apparently from here:

I conducted a survey on sexual harassment in comics, receiving 3,600 responses from people that varied from fans to professionals. The survey was distributed and conducted online, with people sharing it via Twitter, Facebook, and especially Tumblr and self-reporting all information. Of the people taking the survey, 55 percent of respondents were female, 39 percent were male, and six percent were non-binary. https://www.scribd.com/doc/242846454/Sexual-Harassment-Survey-Responses

Being self-reported, with more women responding than men, I was surprised by the results:

Thirteen percent reported having unwanted comments of a sexual nature made about them at conventions—and eight percent of people of all genders reported they had been groped, assaulted, or raped at a comic convention.

While that clearly indicates a problem, I'd be curious how it compares to other venues where thousands of strangers are crammed into a small space for a limited time, especially when more than a third of women report "unwanted touching" occurring at their workplace.

 

[AngryTiger]

Nobody should get non-consensually groped in a gaming store either. Clearly, what *should* happen isn't what's happening. What "should" happen clearly didn't work for the author, why do you it expect to work for you?

In a perfect world, one of infinite time, attention, resources, and goodwill, nobody would have to. In *this* world, we must prioritize. Walk into an emergency room on a busy Saturday night with a skinned knee among the gunshot wounds and drug overdoses, and you'll see what I mean. It isn't that your issue isn't an issue, but you may have to wait for it to be addressed. It isn't that they are "bigger victims" - that sounds like an emotionally loaded phrase. It is simply that the injury they suffer is greater than yours.

And, in this case, unlike in the emergency room, properly addressing the larger root issue *will also address your issue*. Work to reduce the sexism in gaming, and you'll reduce the incidence of such articles. Help others, and you help yourself!

So, I will repeat - by all means continue focusing on the harm done to you, if you feel it is the real priority here.

Guess we have to stop discussing about this topic then. If you were not aware, women in third world countries face much worse then people in first world countries. Hundreds of thousands of women raped every year, thousands murdered as part of "honor killings", most young girls forced into arranged marriages. Much worse than people in first world countries can even imagine.

We must prioritize, and all this discussion about harassment in gaming conventions is doing is distracting from the bigger problem.

But by all means continue to focus on the harm done to priviliged people in first world countries if you feel that is the real priority here.

/Sarcasm

See, the problem with your Fallacy of relative privation(AKA The children are starving in Africa! argument) is that there is always a bigger problem. So we can never discuss about anything, since according to you, the world can only talk about one problem at a time.

 

[Ancalagon]

As was asked, what agenda is that?

I'm still waiting for him to explain what a "masculine gaming content" is...

 

[DEFCON 1]

I have to ask why the difference in standards... Women simply need to claim, but men need to actually, somehow, prove that they didn't do it?

Different standards because I've seen ample evidence for women, people of color, homosexual, and trans people getting shafted by straight, white, males. So my burden of proof has already been reached. All these people DO get crapped upon, and one only needs to actually keep their eyes and ears open to see what is going on. The stuff in North Carolina right now? Only the latest example of a minority group getting crapped on again.

On the contrary though DEFCON 1, that's exactly what you're doing, just swap the genders around. Please reread what you've typed, surely you can see the difference in standards you've placed on the genders. No, you didn't make this about victims and bullies, you made this about men and women and set different bars for each. Ironically your post is guilty of what you've accused Libramarian of.

As above... I've already seen and heard plenty to know that all these groups aren't just "making stuff up" where I need to remain "skeptical". I don't need to be "skeptical" anymore. It's been proven to me time and time again to my satisfaction. If YOU still don't believe it... hey, knock yourself out. But there are people out there who are still "skeptical" that the world is round and that we've landed on the moon, so while skepticism has its place... at some point you need to accept the preponderance of evidence. And if you're not going to, then I'm going to look upon you like you're a fool not worth listening to.

And on top of that... what exactly is it about straight white guys that you want to defend them so much? What's so great about them? Hell, I'm ONE of them, and I can tell you that I think a good percentage of us SUCK. Especially when we deal with women, children, people of color, homosexuals, transgender etc. etc. I've yet to see what so great about us that I need to start in a place of "Well, you gotta prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what you're saying about the straight white guys before I'm willing to accept they've done anything wrong." I've READ U.S. HISTORY. I KNOW the kind of crap we've done. It's been fairly obvious to me the kind of crap we've pulled for centuries. So no... I'm willing to give every other group the benefit of the doubt BEFORE I give it to the straight white guy. Because it's been shown pretty conclusively over the history of this country that where there's smoke... there's a fricking inferno.

 

[Springheel]

what exactly is it about straight white guys that you want to defend them so much? What's so great about them?

...
​

I've READ U.S. HISTORY. I KNOW the kind of crap we've done. It's been fairly obvious to me the kind of crap we've pulled for centuries.

Wow.

I guess judging people by the content of their character rather than by things they can't control, like race, gender, and sexual orientation, is just too old fashioned.

 

[Elf Witch]

Sexism in real life does that, sexism within a game doesn't affect anyone because pixels aren't people. Unless it can be shown that sexism within video games influences people to be more sexist outside of video games (in real life) then yes its simply a matter of taste. You might as well be a religious person arguing that portraying demons in a positive light in video games isn't acceptable. Some people don't want a violent game. Some people don't want a game that has sexism. Some people don't want a game with spirits or demons as main characters. Some people don't mind some of those elements. At that point its down to preference.

Now, if games did influence people's behaviors then all bets would be off and there would be an objective, detectable, harm befalling society and you'd be right, we'd need to address this issue past the current "well that's just not my taste" situation.



There are plenty of guys who believe and there are plenty of women asking questions as well. Please don't try and turn this into a gender war.

To be fair I've only just now entered the conversation and the quotes I've dealt with so far have only been related to complaints women have had. I never said that this is just about women, I understand that there are other complaints by other people as well.

I can't speak for video games as I don't play them but I can speak for table top RPGS and yes the sexism in the early versions lead to sexism directed at female players. The whole strength caps and beauty scores that lead to seduction spells based on those scores lead to some pretty horrible game play sessions. And while those beauty scores may not have been in TSR game products they were published in Dragon magazine.

It gave official permission to DM to treat female players different that male players. I have already talked about the rape of my PC and the DM who made charts to track female PCs menstruation cycles. But there were other rules as well like no female PC can be a paladin, fighter or cleric unless that cleric is to a goddess of love, sex, or family. This DM didn't allow them to be wizards but they could play a special class he made called a witch. Oh and you had to play your own gender.

I was at a con and we were picking out pre generated PCs and this one girl was told no she couldn't play the character she picked because she herself was rather homely so she wouldn't be able to play such a high charisma/beauty score. But a skinny bespectacled guy could play a burly fighter with no problems.

There are other examples as well. Now I have been playing since the 1970s and I have seen that kind of sexism slowly die and a lot of that seem to happen as the game itself changed in the attitude of treatment of female PCs.

The blog that started this mentions mistreatment of POC.

I saw that you earlier mentioned the incidence in the elevator at the atheist convention. I notice you chose to ignore what this woman said was the problem it was not a guy simply and politely asking her to join him for coffee. He was rather aggressive about it and didn't take it well that she said no thank you. She felt threatened and was not sure if it was going to lead to violence. I was not in that elevator and neither were you. But this is why anti harassment polices need to be in place.

I also noticed you bring up examples of lone women doing what you see as strident and making unfounded claims. Yes some do crazy crap like that. But I notice you tend to ignore the behavior of men who for example who make outrageous claims that the new Star Wars film sole purpose is to be a tool for feminist and SJWs and to destroy what it means to be a white man.

You don't believe that sexist things leads to sexist behavior well what about Elliot Rogers the mass shooter who wanted to kill as many pretty girls as he could because they refused to have sex with him and all the pick up sites he belonged to had told him he deserved any woman he wanted. He was lauded as a hero in many of these sites after the shooting.

I am not turning it into as gender war you asked what would be the case if it was a man who was groped and I said that I believed most woman would chose to believe him. And I believe that most men would believe a woman. I am seeing a lot of support from male posters here and on some other places.

What I do find disturbing are posters like you and others who find it necessary to try deny this is an issue that needs addressing.

 

[Libramarian]

I'm still waiting for him to explain what a "masculine gaming content" is...

Content that glorifies masculinity and/or tends to appeal to men more than women and the genderqueer, esp. content that the latter find unappealing or even repulsive.

In a tabletop gaming context an obvious example would be pinup art, e.g. chainmail bikinis. More subtly, a game that assumes the PCs will engage in bloody combat primarily for conquest rather than to defend their communities or express their social bonds, as D&D used to.