Harassment in gaming

[Celebrim]

I honestly don't know how to explain this to you.

Don't assume that the problem is that I don't understand. You don't need to define institutionalized racism for me. I understand your argument. The problem is that I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with you.

No one is saying that beating up someone because you have been mistreated is okay and excusable and that they should be cut some slack because of it.

In the same way, "no one" is saying what the original essayist endured is in any way justified.

It comes down to this. I fully agree with you that sexual assault and harassment (to say nothing of rape) is appalling, and prevalence in gaming subcultures is worthy of discussion, and that we all ought to do everything we can to stop it when we see it. But the underlying framework by which I come to that conclusion is not perfectly in agreement with yours. There is a lot of overlap. There are a lot of things we do agree on. But some of your framework about how you see the world doesn't line up with some of mine. If the only way I can prove I'm not one of the "white male terrorists" is agree with you about every detail, then we are in a lot of trouble. My disagreement with you over these other matters that you just think I'm not getting, which in fact I do 'get' but have rejected, should not get in the way of agreeing to make the world a better place, with more compassion, and more respect for each other. But, if my disagreement with you is met only with the accusation that I'm either a "white male terrorist" or enabling "white male terrorists", then there isn't a lot of hope to be had.

 

[MechaPilot]

That is simply not true. Do you know how hard it is to prosecute sexual assaults cases where there is no witnesses or violence? It comes down to he said she said and the burden of proving it lies on the rape victim and you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is often what happens when a woman reports to the police incidents of being groped all the guy has to say is I didn't touch her and without more proof usually the cops don't bother to arrest the guy and even if they do it usually does not go to court.

It happens at cons when a women tells security of an incident if she can't back it up with proof other than her word even if the con has a policy of ejecting harassers out they tend to err on the side of the person being accused.

It is a tough thing because there are women who have lied about being raped or being harassed.

BTW no one should be picking up hitchhikers I drilled that in my son head not because I was worried about some girl screaming assault but you can't tell if someone is a criminal just by looking at them. I have a family member who was a Navy seal who used to pick up female hitchhikers because he wanted them to be safe. The last one he ever picked up an innocent looking teen girl shot in in the head and robbed him. He lived but his life changed due to brain injury trauma.

I have to say that I agree with both of you.

You are correct that such cases are very hard to prove where there are no witnesses and no lingering evidence of violence. You are likewise correct that most police and prosecutors will likely inform the victim that there is little to no chance of proving what happened in such cases, and that taking such a case to court will likely result in the victim being dragged through the mud and not receiving any legal satisfaction.

However, I do think Celebrim is probably right that there will be a legally-unenforceable presumption that the man who picked up the female hitchhiker (particularly if she is young and/or attractive) had ill intent when he did so. That presumption won't really change the outcome of taking the case to trial, because of the lack of evidence, but it will likely result in both parties being dragged through the mud during the trial. Of course, given the costs of incarceration and prosecution, it's unlikely that the case would ever get to trial.

There's also the fact that many victims of sexual assault don't report, or don't report right away, out of shame and/or embarrassment to themselves and/or their families. A victimized female hitchhiker who fails to report the crime for a couple days is certainly not going to get any legal satisfaction.

 

[billd91]

That's not a bad summary, but that's not the real fundamental reason. The fundamental reason is that if anything happens at all, and it comes down to his word versus hers, he'll never be believed. As man you have to accept that if it's ever your word against hers, there will be no presumption of innocence on your part. And that's doubly true because no one will ever believe a man has anything other than a unsavory motive for picking up a strange woman.

It's really not that way at all. When it comes down to his word vs hers, in most scenarios, she's the one at disadvantage. The presumption of innocence, as important as it is to our justice system, makes sexual assaults very hard to prosecute. On top of that, the intrusive questioning the victim will face, the public shaming that will ensue, and trauma of having to revisit it multiple times just to make an official statement, and then you start to realize why it's so often unreported.

 

[Celebrim]

That is simply not true.

I'm not going to go into this in great depth because it is a tangent in an already controversial subject, and it distracts from the main topic - which is sexism in gaming - and will move the conversation out of gaming into a broader political sphere we don't need to touch.

But I think I can briefly sum up why this situation isn't as straight forward as you think it is. Ask danny's opinion of who he thinks would be believed if the accuser is white.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

Her message probably would have been better received without the overgeneralizing. There are definitely creeps and predators in the gaming community, but to suggest that the majority fall into those categories, or even that the majority support that behaviour, is both misleading and offensive.

Precisely.

Hyperbole, overgeneralizations, etc. are very counterproductive when you are trying to raise awareness of an issue and make a general call to action. When the overgeneralization is specifically directed towards the people who you want to buy into your idea, you are likely to lose a lot of potential allies who may otherwise agree with the gist of the post/article/speech/whatever.

For example, second wave feminism failed to gain as much support among men and women as it could have because so many of the spokespeople made sweeping generalizations about men and relied on hyperbole to get attention.

Being angry at mistreatment is perfectly reasonable, as is expressing that anger. Making sweeping generalizations about gender doesn't help any cause, though, and is somewhat hypocritical when your complaint revolves around being mistreated because of your gender.

Having a valid complaint about sexism does not give you a free pass to be sexist in turn. Pointing out sexism in a post about sexism is not redirecting the issue.

Let's turn this around. If a man were to write an article about his bad experiences in child custody cases and points out how widespread such things are, there's nothing wrong with that. If he couches his article in sweeping generalizations about women, though, he's opening himself (quite rightly) to having people point out how he is being sexist. That wouldn't constitute a misdirection from the issue, either.

Are there some gamers who behave inappropriately and even criminally? Of course there are. That doesn't mean that most do that, though, or that most stand idly by when they witness it. It is a different thing to demonstrate that most female gamers have experienced it and to demonstrate that a majority of male users do it, or avoid stepping in when it happens. Most of us have experienced bullies of one strip or another throughout or lives, but that doesn't mean that most people are bullies, or that most people tolerate bullying.

Some female gamers experience harassment from male gamers. That's a problem. As with all social issues, it's important to keep pointing it out. That's a good thing. Descending into hyperbole and gross overgeneralizations damages the message, though. There is nothing wrong with people within the group that the overgeneralization is directed towards pointing out the problems with it, regardless of their gender or ethnicity.

 

[MechaPilot]

Some female gamers experience harassment from male gamers. That's a problem. As with all social issues, it's important to keep pointing it out. That's a good thing.

I feel the need to point out that while sexual harassment may be a "social" issue, a lot of what was described in the article was flat out sexual assault, and that's not a "social" issue: it's a "criminal" issue.

 

[Libramarian]

Someone has already posted a link to the newspaper article. ( Wyrd is a miniatures game. ) Here is some stuff from the Wyrd Miniatures forum. ( Ferossa is the username of the person who ( I'm assuming ) wrote the Tumblr. ) This is an encapsulated version of the thread, because it's a long thread. It is important to note that this thread is one that has been specifically designated for off topic subjects that usually end up derailing other threads.

Ferossa starts with a post that is mildly critical of Wyrd's representation of Women. ( And an incredible insight into one of the more problematic characters in Malifaux, that made me say "WOW." ) She also briefly outlines some of the harassment she's seen over the years. ( Most of which shows up in her Tumblr post. ) The Wyrd dude escalates her mild criticism, conflating it with an attack on the company. ( Including the standards "we have Women who work here, too" and "but I have gay friends", etc. ) A bunch of the other posters take Nathan's attack on her as license to escalate. Right at the end of the thread, she posts; "To whomever decided to respond by hunting down my personal e-mail and mailing me a bunch of illegal porn, I reported you to the authorities and I hope they SWAT you. I'm now 3/3 wargame communities where I have experienced direct, targeted harassment aimed at driving women out of the hobby. Are we going to accept that there's a problem?"

Here is a link to the thread in question:
http://themostexcellentandawesomefo...x-andor-have-debate-about-in-malifaux/?page=1

The Tumblr post that begins this thread has been popping up all over the place. Since it did, I have seen dozens of my friends and acquaintances who are women relate some of their experiences being harassed in Gamer Spaces. And I've seen hundreds of men posting that it's not a problem, that she's lying, that we should ignore it. I'm done ignoring it.

Where's the proof that she's received death/rape threats from Wyrd staff members?

Out of curiosity, I noticed that you capitalized the word "women" multiple times in your post, but you didn't capitalize the word "men". Why did you do that?

 

[pickin_grinnin]

As far as the question of "what do to with sexism/harrassment in gaming," the answers are pretty clear. They are the same as the answers to any social issue involving bigotry, sexism, racism, etc.

1) Continue to point out the issue in a sound, logical, mature way.

2) Don't descend to the level of the people who are causing the problem.

3) Realize that hyperbole, logical fallacies, and so forth will hurt your cause more than help it. Don't drive away potential allies by making sweeping generalizations.

4) Realize that social issues don't go away overnight. Continuing to push for change is a good thing, but don't expect that such things will go away in a year, or two, or even ten. The best you can hope for is steady improvement. That doesn't mean you should stop bringing attention to it. It just means that you need to have realistic expectations.

Finally, I would say that the problem isn't that there are men in gaming who harass women. The problem is that there are men who harass women, and this extends into all areas of life, including gaming. There is no reason to think that gamers in general (male or female) are any more socially conscious, ethical, egalitarian, etc. than men and women who aren't gamers. It's not a gamer problem. It's the continued existence (though a lessening one over time) of a very, very old problem.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

(sorry - accidental double post)

 

[pickin_grinnin]

I feel the need to point out that while sexual harassment may be a "social" issue, a lot of what was described in the article was flat out sexual assault, and that's not a "social" issue: it's a "criminal" issue.

I agree - many of the examples she pointed out would be classified as sexual assault, which is a criminal issue. That doesn't really change my points, though.