Have you ever had a real experience you consider to be supernatural?

Talking about snake oils...

On another forum, I once saw someone trying to sell hydrogenated water as some sort of cure-all and selling it for $20 per bottle. (Implying that hydrogen was added)

I reported it to the mod who rejected my report, until I reminded him that water is naturally hydrogenated. (H₂O)

I'm pretty sure this is distinct from normal water. I think the thing with hydrogen water is it has extra hydrogen molecules added to it. It looks like it is still being studied, but I did find a handful of papers on it. Personally it isn't something I would take. I know that for some illnesses they are exploring hydrogen treatments and I think that is where this idea of hydrogenated water comes from (again I am not arguing that its effective or anything like that, just I think its more than normal water with a "Hydrogenated" label attached to it.

But what I have seen is the reason it's most widely promoted is because people think it may have anti-inflammatory properties. I did see a handful of studies looking it up on google scholar. Again, hydrogen water sounds like something people are hyping without a lot of support, but there are some good reasons why people with inflammatory diseases will seek out alternative treatments like this. If you have serious inflammatory issues, one of the only treatments they use are immune suppressants. And those are very much a sledgehammer cure. I've been on them. I have had family members on them, but they can go sideways (My mother for example ended up with sepsis due to being on immune suppressants and got sick so often it was impacting her ability to work). There are a lot of foods and supplements people will try just because they are out of options or stuck between having to go on an immune suppressant in the middle of a pandemic or seek something that doesn't have a lot of data but maybe offers a sliver of hope to help.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
As a side note, it's important to note that -- just as with COVID -- actual medical disinformation is dangerous and may not be posted on these forums. Just jumping in in advance, because we're very serious about that and I don't want to see anybody run afoul of it.
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
These are good points. And they align with my general policy to avoid trying to convert someone to/from a religion.

But there's a big but than you even alluded to.

If somebody believes in something that truly isn't real (and there's a worrying lot of that going on these days), they don't have a solid position to defend. Whereas the person arguing against, does. Because that's how facts work.

Now in the case of something like Flat Earth, the truly wrong folks are entrenched, and have their own dizzying array of baloney to barf out as their argument. Only the most steadfast can wade through to debunking it all to get to their own proof. And even then, the denier will deny. It's crazy.

In a smaller case of, "I think I saw a ghost" maybe not so much. But then, if I can offer a simpler explanation (and demonstrate it) on how a water faucet got turned on by itself, well, why shouldn't I do that?

Because at the heart of it, we are humans looking to understand how the universe works. Every unexplained occurrence is a stimulus to somebody to figure it out. And settling for made up non-sense is the antithesis of that spirit. It is what holds us back from seeing the shadows on the wall in the back of the cave for what they truly are.

And so, I respect being kind about it, but I'm not gonna hold somebody back from figuring out the truth with actual facts. Which I shouldn't even have to put those 2 words together.
Thanks!

Let me counter, however, that it can be clearly and indisputably proven that the Earth is not flat. Proving that there are no ghosts, or no afterlife, or no Allah - for example - simply cannot be done.

One can poke a person with spiritual beliefs with seemingly very rational counter-arguments, but a) why? (assuming no harm is being done by the believer), and b) I'll repeat my point about being careful who you argue with - just because an argument (yours, or the other person's) seems to make sense doesn't mean it does, and the person arguing the point may just be better at winning arguments, not necessarily better at being right.

I mostly avoid these kinds of conversations online, for the reasons one avoids contention online, but also because whenever I make even the slightest noise about defending religious faith and spiritual beliefs, I'm almost immediately expected to defend any and all spiritual belief across time and space.
 

Ryujin

Legend
Personally I am all for people having good health, so I think this is a very fair thing to consider and something people should seriously weigh whenvever they look into alternative treatments (and I think you should also get approval from your doctor). This goes well past traditional cures though. And I agree there are a lot of shady supplement industries. But you don't have to go after something like herbal cures that cultures have handed down for hundreds or thousands of years to find an issue, just go to GNC. I used to be very involved in physical activities where GNC was just part of the culture, and I even tried some of that stuff for awhile. One thing you realize is a lot of it does work, but you also have a nagging suspicion that it isn't good for you. I worked at a medical journal for a while and I remember editing articles that covered a lot of the products on GNC shelves that can do harm to internal organs. And there are herbal cures that can also be dangerous. But there is also a lot of stuff that actually seems pretty effective. And drug interactions are always a very, very big concern, whatever you are taking. Even if you don't supplement some of the ideas GNC culture has about how much protein to consume and how much vitamins you should get are not healthy for you.

Also what we are talking about applies to food in stores. There is a lot of food we eat and we buy that is can be just as devastating for your body and organs over time. I don't think that means something like Soda ought to be outlawed (people have a right to drink that stuff if they want) but they should be given good nutritional and health information. Pretty much everyone in my family over 50 is diabetic or pre-diabetic. Heart disease runs on my mom's side of the family. I made a point of cutting out unnecessary sugar in my diet (and keeping my weight under control) so I can minimize my risks there. I take the same degree of caution with that, that I do with anything I put in my body. I always talk to my doctor about any treatment or therapy.

Something people also need to understand about alternative therapies and medicine, and I would contrast this with traditional medicine, because the latter is much more closely tied to culture and family history, is with a lot of conditions, people end up hitting a wall, and they reach a point where they are just trying anything, with a doctor's approval, just to hedge their bets. It doesn't particularly matter why it helps, even if its purely psychological it can still help and, even if it physically does nothing in some cases, provided its safe and the doctor approves, it is at least giving them a sense of doing something and being in control (which also has a massive impact).

One thing that has become very clear to me, and this is something that traditional meditation has helped me with a lot (but also something I've learned through modern therapy) is the power the mind has over our bodies. You aren't going to fix a heart attack with positive thoughts, but your thoughts do have an impact on health. With Crohns for instance you can see this in real time, and you can manage some crohns symptoms simply by being more conscious of how your thoughts affect something like the tightness of your stomach or the degree of nervousness you feel in your gut. That isn't a cure, but it isn't nothing, it is a very substantial degree of control over the illness.

Another example is pain management. A lot of our pain management in modern medicine, has had serious unintended consequences. I've had family and friends who have become addicted to pain killers (and I've seen people die from that stuff: I'm sure many other people here have). I had a bunch of Crohns surgeries and each time they were trying to get me to go onto opiate medications. For the first three I did. But I also got uncomfortable being that reliant on them by the fourth. And so I used real basic medication techniques to help get my mind to distinguish between the pain and the emotions that amplified my perception of the pain. I was able to have multiple surgeries without taking any pain medication after I got out of the hospital. It hurt a little bit, but not nearly as bad as I thought it would, or as much as my doctor's said it would (and I informed them I wasn't taking the pain medication). To me that shows that some of these traditional spiritual methods can have very practical results for people, even in the context of something like recovering from a surgery. And given the risks of opioids, I'm glad I went that direction.
Yes, the "undisclosed ingredients" thing is a different issue. That's one of failure to properly regulate an industry.

Ingredients that can have an effect on medication, or cause some sort of drug interaction, need to be listed. Your example of foods that can be an issue is a very good one. For example something as simple as grapefruit juice can interact with many medications. One of my current med's effects are amplified by grapefruit juice and I have to avoid it, as a result.
 

Yes, the "undisclosed ingredients" thing is a different issue. That's one of failure to properly regulate an industry.

Ingredients that can have an effect on medication, or cause some sort of drug interaction, need to be listed. Your example of foods that can be an issue is a very good one. For example something as simple as grapefruit juice can interact with many medications. One of my current med's effects are amplified by grapefruit juice and I have to avoid it, as a result.

I’ve been on antibiotics for ten years following the surgeries I mentioned. Alcohol can affect the efficacy if many antibiotics but one I’m on can interact badly with alcohol (even small amounts). If your on medication it’s a very good idea to read the label for interactions and read labels at stores. Back when they had me on more medications grapefruit juice was one I saw all the time (I can drink it now but I’m so trained tobacconists with interacting with medicine I don’t even like the taste anymore)
 

Resayttan13

Villager
When I was younger, I used to live in really old house. I never really believed in ghosts, but there were definitely some weird things that happened in that house. One time, I was home alone and I heard a noise coming from upstairs. I went to investigate and there was nobody there. Another time, I was in my room and I saw a figure in the doorway, but when I turned on the light, there was nobody there. Whatever was happening in that house, it definitely wasn't natural. Even now, thinking about it gives me chills.
 

Thanks!

Let me counter, however, that it can be clearly and indisputably proven that the Earth is not flat. Proving that there are no ghosts, or no afterlife, or no Allah - for example - simply cannot be done.

One can poke a person with spiritual beliefs with seemingly very rational counter-arguments, but a) why? (assuming no harm is being done by the believer), and b) I'll repeat my point about being careful who you argue with - just because an argument (yours, or the other person's) seems to make sense doesn't mean it does, and the person arguing the point may just be better at winning arguments, not necessarily better at being right.

I mostly avoid these kinds of conversations online, for the reasons one avoids contention online, but also because whenever I make even the slightest noise about defending religious faith and spiritual beliefs, I'm almost immediately expected to defend any and all spiritual belief across time and space.

I think people are being pretty good overall in this conversation but it is something to consider when you challenge a person’s beliefs, what that will do to the person if you persuade. Religion and spirituality are more than just explanations of the world, they also give people meaning. I’ve seen people lose belief in that way and the result be negative for them. Not saying belief is superior to non-belief, just that it isn’t a minor thing for a person to relinquish their view of the meaning of life
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
I think people are being pretty good overall in this conversation but it is something to consider when you challenge a person’s beliefs, what that will do to the person if you persuade. Religion and spirituality are more than just explanations of the world, they also give people meaning. I’ve seen people lose belief in that way and the result be negative for them. Not saying belief is superior to non-belief, just that it isn’t a minor thing for a person to relinquish their view of the meaning of life
That's a big part of it, yeah.

Plus, most people walk around believing things (about themselves, about others, etc.) all day long that other people would find patently untrue, so why pick on the harmless spiritual beliefs of others?
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
Personally I've never had any supernatural experience. In fact, I do not believe in the supernatural. This is just my opinion, not trying or wanting to convince anyone :)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Let me counter, however, that it can be clearly and indisputably proven that the Earth is not flat. Proving that there are no ghosts, or no afterlife, or no Allah - for example - simply cannot be done.

So, this will seem like "just semantics" but in this case, it is quite relevant.

Technically, what you prove isn't, "The Earth is not flat." What you prove is, "The Earth is round," and it just happens that flat and round are mutually exclusive.

That ends up important - with the Earth, we have something specific we can prove something contrary that eliminates the possibility that the world is flat. With ghosts, the afterlife, and such, we cannot even state a positive assertion that might settle the issue, much less prove that assertion.

This leaves such questions in the state that's called "non-falsifiable". Logic and science do not really apply to such questions.
 

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