Have you ever had a real experience you consider to be supernatural?

Indeed exactly as I saw her when I ceased to accept her 'sainthood' and looked up facts. I was disappointed badly, I wanted to believe in a pureky good person after all the festering bipedal masses of vileness and evil I'd met. But my rational mind won out over my desires in the end.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think that it all comes down to "do no harm" for me. If someone's belief makes them search for meaning, then that's a good thing. If it makes them shut down their mind to anything that falls outside their world view, then that's bad. I have friends who are "Wiccans" and "Pagans." They believe in stuff like Reiki, Tarot readings, and the like, however, they use them as guiding principles instead of a straight jacket. They wouldn't, for example, use "essential oils" exclusively to treat illness, when there is a perfectly good General Practitioner just up the road. They are vaccinated. It's additive, not exclusionary. If all that it really does is provide a placebo effect, while causing no harm to themselves or others, where's the problem?
I agree with this, and I don't really understand why it's elicited any pushback, as it seems to me you are saying:

1) Seek reputable, licensed medical attention if you're sick, and follow medical direction generally
2) If you want to supplement your allopathic program with prayer, going to church, chakra healing, vibrational therapy etc. etc., knock yourself out - it won't do any harm

Maybe other people are interpreting your words differently.

The only caveat I would add is:

If you take any herbal/naturopathic remedies, you do so at your own risk if their pharmacology is unproven or their interactions with prescription drugs are unclear.
 
Last edited:

Ryujin

Legend
I agree with this, and I don't really understand why it's elicited any pushback, as it seems to me you are saying:

1) Seek reputable, licensed medical attention if you're sick, and follow medical direction generally
2) If you want to supplement your allopathic program with prayer, going to church, chakra healing, vibrational therapy etc. etc., knock yourself out - it won't do any harm

Maybe other people are interpreting your words differently.

The only caveat I would add is:

If you take any herbal/naturopathic remedies, you do so at your own risk if their pharmacology is unproven or their interactions with prescription drugs are unclear.
Exactly. I can't speak for anyone else but my GP does ask if I'm using any such remedies during my visits. For the record, I don't.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
To understand this we have to remember how traditional medical practices are formed - they are the product of centuries of trial and error, adopting techniques that seemed to work, and then rationalizing those techniques in terms of the traditional terminology, and sometimes adjusting the terminology to include the techniques.

So, if someone finds that an tea made from willow bark helps with headaches, then of course we keep using that tea - and we rationalize an explanation for why it works.
As the old joke goes --

You know what they call alternative medicine which works?

Medicine.
 

beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
It's absolutely true that people can change an irrationally-held belief when presented with evidence. So it is possible to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, which means the platitude is incorrect, which was the point. It won't always work, not nearly always, but it can and does work at times.

It depends on the belief. Believing in a flat earth for example, is a lot different than believing in deities.

You can prove that the earth isn't flat, but it's not possible to prove or disprove the existence of deities. And because it's not possible to prove either way, it's much harder to convince the Theist or Atheist to change their minds.

In my personal experience, the two Theist turned (self proclaimed) Atheist that I've met, were in fact rejecting the tenets of their former religion, not their belief in the existence of a god. So, they really weren't Atheist. Just unaffiliated Theist.
 

Because, often it isn't "just a placebo effect". Sometimes belief systems say something different than scientific systems, and they come into conflict. Let me give you an example from my wife's work...

But I think he is just saying, a lot of people do with a doctor's approval. This is especially the case if you have a challenging illness. I know I have had conversations with my doctor about alternative treatments (and I've even had doctors bring them up). I think he is saying a large number of people just use this as supplementary and he was very specific about saying he is talking about people who don't do things like ignore medical advice in favor of alternative treatments (but simply compliment treatments with alternative remedies).

My wife uses a lot of traditional cures (she was born outside the US and a lot of it is stuff I wasn't familiar with until I met her). Quite a bit of it, just from an outside perspective, and as someone who doesn't take the treatments she uses, it looks rather effective to me in many instances.
 


beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
Talking about snake oils...

On another forum, I once saw someone trying to sell hydrogenated water as some sort of cure-all and selling it for $20 per bottle. (Implying that hydrogen was added)

I reported it to the mod who rejected my report, until I reminded him that water is naturally hydrogenated. (H₂O)
 

That's like saying, "What harm is there in the cases that I cherrypick to not be harmful?"

But he isn't cherrypicking, he is laying out clear parameters for how a particular thing ought to be used. Saying as long as the Doctor is okay with it and you are still using modern medicine, he isn't troubled if people seek alternative therapies (which I think is fair because I've met a large number of doctors, I think most of my doctors, who feel that way). And there are also shortlists of alternative and traditional therapies Doctors seem to have more confidence in as well (something like acupuncture is stuff I've had recommended by more than one doctor for instance).
 

The problem is kind of subtle. Take homeopathy or the supplement industry as an example. These industries are generally not regulated and there have been reports of ingredients in these products that are not disclosed on the label so people may not know what it is they are actually taking and that can be dangerous. Also, ingredients may be labeled but since there is no regulation or scientific standard the amounts can wildly vary. As an example, belladonna has been found baby teething gels and since there is no medical or scientific standard for the products and no regulation the dosage can vary and harm children.

Personally I am all for people having good health, so I think this is a very fair thing to consider and something people should seriously weigh whenvever they look into alternative treatments (and I think you should also get approval from your doctor). This goes well past traditional cures though. And I agree there are a lot of shady supplement industries. But you don't have to go after something like herbal cures that cultures have handed down for hundreds or thousands of years to find an issue, just go to GNC. I used to be very involved in physical activities where GNC was just part of the culture, and I even tried some of that stuff for awhile. One thing you realize is a lot of it does work, but you also have a nagging suspicion that it isn't good for you. I worked at a medical journal for a while and I remember editing articles that covered a lot of the products on GNC shelves that can do harm to internal organs. And there are herbal cures that can also be dangerous. But there is also a lot of stuff that actually seems pretty effective. And drug interactions are always a very, very big concern, whatever you are taking. Even if you don't supplement some of the ideas GNC culture has about how much protein to consume and how much vitamins you should get are not healthy for you.

Also what we are talking about applies to food in stores. There is a lot of food we eat and we buy that is can be just as devastating for your body and organs over time. I don't think that means something like Soda ought to be outlawed (people have a right to drink that stuff if they want) but they should be given good nutritional and health information. Pretty much everyone in my family over 50 is diabetic or pre-diabetic. Heart disease runs on my mom's side of the family. I made a point of cutting out unnecessary sugar in my diet (and keeping my weight under control) so I can minimize my risks there. I take the same degree of caution with that, that I do with anything I put in my body. I always talk to my doctor about any treatment or therapy.

Something people also need to understand about alternative therapies and medicine, and I would contrast this with traditional medicine, because the latter is much more closely tied to culture and family history, is with a lot of conditions, people end up hitting a wall, and they reach a point where they are just trying anything, with a doctor's approval, just to hedge their bets. It doesn't particularly matter why it helps, even if its purely psychological it can still help and, even if it physically does nothing in some cases, provided its safe and the doctor approves, it is at least giving them a sense of doing something and being in control (which also has a massive impact).

One thing that has become very clear to me, and this is something that traditional meditation has helped me with a lot (but also something I've learned through modern therapy) is the power the mind has over our bodies. You aren't going to fix a heart attack with positive thoughts, but your thoughts do have an impact on health. With Crohns for instance you can see this in real time, and you can manage some crohns symptoms simply by being more conscious of how your thoughts affect something like the tightness of your stomach or the degree of nervousness you feel in your gut. That isn't a cure, but it isn't nothing, it is a very substantial degree of control over the illness.

Another example is pain management. A lot of our pain management in modern medicine, has had serious unintended consequences. I've had family and friends who have become addicted to pain killers (and I've seen people die from that stuff: I'm sure many other people here have). I had a bunch of Crohns surgeries and each time they were trying to get me to go onto opiate medications. For the first three I did. But I also got uncomfortable being that reliant on them by the fourth. And so I used real basic medication techniques to help get my mind to distinguish between the pain and the emotions that amplified my perception of the pain. I was able to have multiple surgeries without taking any pain medication after I got out of the hospital. It hurt a little bit, but not nearly as bad as I thought it would, or as much as my doctor's said it would (and I informed them I wasn't taking the pain medication). To me that shows that some of these traditional spiritual methods can have very practical results for people, even in the context of something like recovering from a surgery. And given the risks of opioids, I'm glad I went that direction.
 

Remove ads

Top