Help me build a Paladin/Sorcerer

[Elder-Basilisk]

Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician
Divine Might

Very good choices which build effectively on the limited synergies of your classes

Divine Vigor

You'd have to wait until well into Sacred Exorcist levels to take this. And by that point, you've better ways to get the enhancement bonus to con (Endurance or bracers of health) and a bonus to speed (Expeditious retreat)

Energy Substitution,

Usually a good feat for a sorceror but you're focussing on melee rather than area effect spells. Plus you don't have any elemental spells on your list right now.

Energy Admixture

Double empower your spells instead for the same double damage but all in one energy type (thereby avoiding having your spell hit two types of elemental resistance). You don't have any elemental spells on your list right now either.

Eschew Materials

Not worth it. Spend the 5 gp for a spell component pouch instead.

Expertise, Superior Expertise, Chink in the Armor

Int is the last stat that you'll find useful as a paladin/sorceror. A 13 int is something of a waste. . . . And you've got a lot of ways to improve your AC anyway.

Chink in the armor is only useful if you're going to have trouble hitting. You should be able to construct your character so that he doesn't.

Extend Spell, Persistant Spell

Excellent choices. Persistent Shield will be your friend. If you can stand a 20% miss chance eating your breakfast Persistent Blink would be even better.

Improved Initiative

Not too useful. It's not as if you're going to have a monster dex to back it up so just get used to the fact that you'll often go late in the intiative order. (It only makes a difference on the first turn anyway).

Leadership

A good feat if the party's small but it bogs gameplay down if you've already got a large party.

Lightning Reflexes

If a paladin/sorceror can afford to blow a feat on improving saves, he's not using his feats effectively (your charisma and your vest of resistance will give you good saves; don't worry about this)

Quicken Spell

Good for magic missile as long as you have arcane preparation. Persistent spell covers a lot of the same ground for defensive spells though.

Repeat Spell

With True Strike, it appears you thought of a use for this feat. I don't see it as particularly useful for any other spells though.

Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus/Chain Spell

Spell focus feats are only useful if you use a lot of spells with saves. Chain spell will be good for Haste but what else will you use it for? (IIRC GMW has a range of touch and is therefore ineligable for use with this feat).

Sculpt Spell/Enlarge Spell

Get sculpt spell if you're thinking of either of these. It's far far far better than enlarge spell. Of course, I don't see any damaging spells other than magic missile on your spell list so I don't see you using it.

1st - true strike, shield, magic missile, color spray

By high levels, Color Spray won't be useful anymore. Think of picking up Feather Fall instead. It will still be useful and you can use it on other people too (most items that contain it use up valuable slots and can't help other people). I'd consider picking up Expeditious Retreat as well. You can make it persistent and constantly be at double movement.

2nd - web

See Invisibility and Glitterdust as well. Every character higher than 5th level needs a way to deal with invisibility. Glitterdust will also double as Mass Blindness too. You may well want Blindness/Deafness on top of this (no somatic component and it's a good spell).

3rd - haste, blink

I'd add slow to this list--use it to counter your foes' mass Haste spells. Consider greater Magic Weapon as well.

4th - polymorph self

Fire Shield is also a good option for a melee character (assuming there's a reasonable chance that a foe might hit you). Improved Invisibility would be a good spell to know if you don't pick up the normal invisibility. Pick up Dimension Door too if you won't get another teleport style spell.

5th - wall of force

Teleport and Energy Buffer are also must have spells at this level.

6th - tensor's transformation, greater dispelling, summon monster VI
7th - limited wish
8th - mind blank
9th - time stop

I am not including the spells I will get from the exorcism domain from S.E. PrC. IDHMBWM and am unsure about the usefulness of mindblank. Will PfE and nondetection accomplish the same thing?

PfE and Nondetection don't come close to the utility of Mind Blank. The first bit is this: nondetection allows a caster level check to overcome its protection. Mind Blank doesn't. Protection from evil only protects against domination and telepathy. Mind Blank grants total immunity to all mind-effecting spells. On top of that, even at clvl 17 and extended 8 times to be a 9th level spell, protection from evil only lasts a few hours. Mind Blank lasts 24 hours. So Mind Blank is superior protection for a much longer time period. Plus it doesn't have a notable material component like non-detection.

 

[Corwin]

If I were going to make a paladin/sorcerer, I'd go with War Wizard of Cormyr (from FR) as my PrC of choice. Think of all the free Widen Spells you'd get per day. .

Plus the concept of a front-lines, warrior paladin with nasty, explosive, arcane spells appeals to me.

Though I didn't have any paladin levels, I played a Sorcerer/War Wizard for a while and loved it. I can readily picture the benefits he would have had from a level of two of paladin.

 

[0-hr]

Chain spell will be good for Haste but what else will you use it for? (IIRC GMW has a range of touch and is therefore ineligable for use with this feat).

Greater Magic Weapon has a range of "Close" and works very well with Chain (excellent review though).

 

[Gaiden]

Elder-Basalisk - you are the bomb.

Such a good analysis. I am impressed - and that does not happen very often.

With regard to a bunch of the feats listed, they are all contingent upon spell choice. I was planning on taking at least a few attack spells, but did not know which ones I should be taking so did not list them. I thought about Eschew Materials because I think you have to have the material components in hand when casting a spell and for a shield and sword wielding combatant, it would be complex to switch back and forth for having the free hand to hold the components. I included it on my definite list because I know my DM would care about that.

My new feat list based on what you said would be:

Definites:

Still Spell
Arcane Preparation
Cooperative Spell
Power Attack
Extra Turningx2
Divine Might
Eschew Materials

Contendors for the other 4:

Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician
Leadership

Extend Spell, Persistant Spell
Quicken Spell


I leave the metamagic feats on there for their usefulness to be measured based on the spells I will outline below.

Last night I went through all of the spells in the PHB and came up with two different lists. One for all of the spells without S components and one for all the spells that would be cool to have. Remember that any spell that I take that has S components is going to be effectively one level higher (unless it has a long duration and I can cast it in the morning before I put on my armor). This means that it will have to be so effective that I can deal with casting it two levels later.

List of Spells with no Somatic Component:
(anything with a * is a spell that I would want take)
(this list is not complete - it only inlcudes spells on the Sorcerer list)

0th - flare*
1st - featherfall*, true strike*
2nd - Blindness/Deafness*, Blur*, Knock
3rd - Suggestion
4th - Dimensional Door, Lesser Geas, Polymorph Self*, Shout*
5th - Teleport
6th - Geas
7th - Teleport w/o Error*, Power Word Stun
8th - Mass Charm, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Power Word Blind
9th - Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Time Stop*, Wail of the Banshee

List of Spells that I would want (taken in the order listed):
(anything with * indicates that the spell has no S component)

1st (5) - True Strike*, Featerfall*, Shield, Grease, Magic Missile
2nd (5) - Blur*, Web
3rd (4) - Haste
4th (4) - Polymorph Self*, Shout*, Fireshield
5th (4) - Wall of Force
6th (3) - Geas*, Tensor's Transformation, Greater Dispelling
7th (3) - Teleport without Error*, Limited Wish
8th (2) - Mind Blank
9th (1) - Time Stop*

List of Spells that seem useful and I need to decide on listed in order of seemingly most useful:

2nd - Glitterdust, blindness/deafness, See Invisibility (again, thinking of simply getting magic item), Melf's Acid Arrow, Rope Trick, Knock (thinking I can just get a magic item to do this),

3rd - Vampiric Touch, Stinking Cloud, Blink (I don't like that 20% of my attacks and abilities won't work with blink so I did not include in on my list of definites), Slow, Suggestion, Fireball

4th - Stoneskin, Charm Monster, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimensional Door (would probably get rid of Teleport without Error if I took this), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Improved Invisibility, Enervation (not sure if the best spell to take if I am a paladin), Polymorph Other

5th - Feeblemind, Telekinesis, Cone of Cold, Stone Shape, Teleport

7th - Banishment, Power Word Stun, Delayed Blast Fireball, Ethereal Jaunt

8th - Otto's Irresistable Dance, Sun Burst, Mass Charm, Power Word Blind

 

[Zhure]

I'm working up my "arcane armored sorcerer" in one of the games I'm in.

He is concentrating on non-somatic spells and is taking Scribe Scroll in lieu of Arcane Preparation for the same reason. He'll just scribe a few critical spells in advance. I'd take Arcane Preparation instead if I planned on taking Mage of the Order Arcane as a scribed scroll can do the same things and is a lot more flexible.

He's also taking Quicken which is normally less than perfectly useful for a Sorcerer, but in his case, a Quickened, Stilled, Magic Missile scroll will be da bomb someday.

Greg

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

With regard to a bunch of the feats listed, they are all contingent upon spell choice. I was planning on taking at least a few attack spells, but did not know which ones I should be taking so did not list them. I thought about Eschew Materials because I think you have to have the material components in hand when casting a spell and for a shield and sword wielding combatant, it would be complex to switch back and forth for having the free hand to hold the components. I included it on my definite list because I know my DM would care about that.

I'd advise looking over the list of spells you're considering. There are a lot of spells without any material components. If you end up with most spells not having material components, I'd ditch the feat

My new feat list based on what you said would be:

Definites:

Still Spell
Arcane Preparation
Cooperative Spell
Power Attack
Extra Turningx2
Divine Might
Eschew Materials

Contendors for the other 4:

Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician
Leadership

Extend Spell, Persistant Spell
Quicken Spell

I'd rule out combat casting right away. I take it you're creating this character at 17th level or so. In that case you've probably already got +24 to your concentration check which means you could cast a 9th level spell on the defensive even if you rolled a 1.

Really, after level 8 or so when a spellcaster probably has +11[+con bonus] in concentration and only needs to roll a 2 or 3 to successfully cast on the defensive without the feat, Combat Casting is a waste. It also doesn't help against damage taken from readied attacks since it's only for casting defensively. Even at level 1 (where it is mildly useful), I think that skill focus: concentration is a better feat.

Only take Combat Reflexes and Expert Tactician if you're taking one or more of the following spells: Blink, Improved Invisibility, Evard's Black Tentacles, Power Word Stun, Power Word Blind. (Although I suppose you get Holy Word from the exorcism domain which will also do the trick). The feat combo is good if you have a way of making sure that your foes regularly lose their dex bonus. If you don't it's not a good combo.

Extend Spell and Persistent Spell belong on the Definite list. As a sorceror, you can make use of a few high level spell slots at the end of the day to buff yourself and your party for the next week with Extend Spell. ("Let's see, I've got an 8th level spell slot left, 3 seventh levels, and 2 sixth levels that I can afford to use. Greater Magic weapon extended 5 times is an 8th level spell and will last 85 hours. Energy Buffer can be extended twice and give protection for the next 72 hours. And, what the heck, I'm not doing anything else with this 5th level slot. How about a Persistent True Strike. My next attack roll in the next 24 hours gets +20.")

I leave the metamagic feats on there for their usefulness to be measured based on the spells I will outline below.

Last night I went through all of the spells in the PHB and came up with two different lists. One for all of the spells without S components and one for all the spells that would be cool to have. Remember that any spell that I take that has S components is going to be effectively one level higher (unless it has a long duration and I can cast it in the morning before I put on my armor). This means that it will have to be so effective that I can deal with casting it two levels later.

List of Spells with no Somatic Component:
(anything with a * is a spell that I would want take)
(this list is not complete - it only inlcudes spells on the Sorcerer list)

0th - flare*

This one's not really too useful. At high or low levels, you've better things to do with your combat rounds. Dancing Lights, even if it would have to be a 1st level spell, would be better because even at 20th level, it can light up the other end of a cavern where the True Ghoul Deepwood Sniper is shooting from (beyond the range of your spellpool granted Darkvision).

1st - featherfall*, true strike*
2nd - Blindness/Deafness*, Blur*, Knock

Blur is a pathetically weak spell and would be even at 1st level. The best you're going to get out of it--if your opponent would hit you on a roll of a 2--is a 17% reduction in damage taken (not counting sneak attacks of course but you have other ways of negating those--fortification armor, Darkness, Obscuring Mist, Blindness on the rogue, etc.) Since you're going to be an armored caster--one of the highest AC class combos in the game--the difference it will make to you will probably be neglibable.

3rd - Suggestion

You missed Displacement.

4th - Dimensional Door, Lesser Geas, Polymorph Self*, Shout*

Again, Shout may be a spell without somatic components but that doesn't change the fact that it's a pathetically weak spell for its level. Use a Stilled Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Icy Burst (Tome and Blood) instead.

5th - Teleport
6th - Geas
7th - Teleport w/o Error*, Power Word Stun
8th - Mass Charm, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Power Word Blind
9th - Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Time Stop*, Wail of the Banshee

List of Spells that I would want (taken in the order listed):
(anything with * indicates that the spell has no S component)

1st (5) - True Strike*, Featerfall*, Shield, Grease, Magic Missile

I'd rethink Grease. It may not be subject to spell resistance but it's also not that useful. At high levels (when spell resistance is an issue), most enemies will either have the ability to fly or multiple legs/etc which will render this spell less useful. And using it to disarm is a pretty hopeless task too. The enemy makes a save to avoid the spell entirely and then a reflex save each round to avoid dropping his weapon. You'll do better casting true strike and using the disarm manuever. . . .

2nd (5) - Blur*, Web

See previous comments on Blur

3rd (4) - Haste
4th (4) - Polymorph Self*, Shout*, Fireshield
5th (4) - Wall of Force
6th (3) - Geas*, Tensor's Transformation, Greater Dispelling
7th (3) - Teleport without Error*, Limited Wish
8th (2) - Mind Blank
9th (1) - Time Stop*

List of Spells that seem useful and I need to decide on listed in order of seemingly most useful:

2nd - Glitterdust, blindness/deafness, See Invisibility (again, thinking of simply getting magic item), Melf's Acid Arrow, Rope Trick, Knock (thinking I can just get a magic item to do this),

Which magic item are you thinking of getting for See Invisibility? (It's also a good spell to use with Persistent Spell).

Consider picking up Detect Thoughts as well. A persistent Detect Thoughts can be very useful if you want to know whether or not someone's lying to you. Even a silent detect thoughts can be cast inconspicuously if you don't have a free 6th level spell slot.

Rope Trick and Knock are spells that you can grab from the spell pool if you need them. Waiting a round or two for the spell to arrive won't be much of a disadvantage.

3rd - Vampiric Touch, Stinking Cloud, Blink (I don't like that 20% of my attacks and abilities won't work with blink so I did not include in on my list of definites), Slow, Suggestion, Fireball

Add Displacement to the list of possibilities here. If you don't get Blink, Displacement is a great defensive spell and can be cast on other characters too.

4th - Stoneskin, Charm Monster, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimensional Door (would probably get rid of Teleport without Error if I took this), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Minor Globe of Invulnerability,

Don't take Minor Globe of invulnerability. By the time you'd be able to cast it (10th level) you can expect to be facing Cones of Cold and Enervations and other things it won't help against. By the time you hit 20th level, it'll be utterly useless.

Improved Invisibility, Enervation (not sure if the best spell to take if I am a paladin), Polymorph Other

5th - Feeblemind, Telekinesis, Cone of Cold, Stone Shape, Teleport

7th - Banishment, Power Word Stun, Delayed Blast Fireball, Ethereal Jaunt

Banishment is an Exorcism Domain spell--no need to waste a spell known on it. Delayed Blast Fireball is a pretty anemic spell for its level as well. You can get 15d6 damage out of Cone of Cold which is two levels lower. If you had Empower Spell or a metamagic feat rod for it, you'll blow DBF out of the water with that.

8th - Otto's Irresistable Dance, Sun Burst, Mass Charm, Power Word Blind

 

[AuraSeer]

Delayed Blast Fireball is a pretty anemic spell for its level as well.

...after the errata, that is. It now does 1d6 per level (instead of 1d8), with a max of 20d6.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Creating a high level character from scratch, its easy - but I have to tell you that playing a Paladin/Sorcerer from low levels is an idea that I've found just doesn't work. I got the character up to 6th level (Pal2/Sor4) but frankly, I just wasn't really in the game in anything other than spectacularly precise circumstances, and he ceased being fun to play.

It seemed like a good synergy (BTW, I took the 2nd level of Paladin for the fear immunity) but sorcerers get access to high level spells more slowly, *and* this put me an extra two levels behind...


So, just a voice of experience that says creating a character from scratch at high levels is *very* different to bringing one up through the levels.

(An ideal situation might be to start with fighter characters who can get to relatively high levels before they die, then bring in a replacement mage or sorcerer who hasn't had to go the long way round...)

Cheers

 

[Gaiden]

The character would most likely start at 7 (depends on what level the party is when the next character dies).

Creating a high level character from scratch, its easy - but I have to tell you that playing a Paladin/Sorcerer from low levels is an idea that I've found just doesn't work. I got the character up to 6th level (Pal2/Sor4) but frankly, I just wasn't really in the game in anything other than spectacularly precise circumstances, and he ceased being fun to play.

Believe me when I say I understand - my current Rogue 4/wiz 2 halfling on the way to Arcane Trickster blows chunks. However, I realized that caster/other types can be effective if appropriate spells are chosen. The Pal1/Fig1/Sor4/MotAO1 could be effective with true strikes, shield, Power Attack, Divine Might, and a few other abilities. At 7th level I could get a character with an AC around 33 or so who could be hitting every other round with a +30 or so after power attacking for 5 doing probably upwards of 30 damage a hit. WIth a critical it would force a save vs. death and there is a lot of versatility with such a high attack bonus. Granted, that damage occurs much slower than normal, but I have got the AC to back it up. And that is just for melee. I also would have a few other salient abilities to use.

Elder-Basalisk: I have a few questions.

1. I know people usually don't like blur, but is it really that bad? If I have a very high armor class, I imagine that most enemies when they hit, will hit hard (probably with a crit.) Having a 1in5 chance of negating the damage, seems pretty good. Moreover, it makes me immune to sneak attacks. Also, it only has a V component so I could cast it when I get 2nd level spells and make it persistant later on. Also, if I take it, it would stack with the miss chance from blink.

2. I think Displacement requires a S component - IDHMBWM. This brings up the core of the issue though. It seems that there are a collection of spells that are all very similar and that I should choose only one of (maybe 2). Those spells are as follows:

invisibility
blur
blink
displacement
improved invisibility
mirror image

Blur has the advantage of not having a S component and if I took it, then I certainly would not take displacement. I am not sure which spell or combination of spells is the best out of this pool. I tend to think mirror image or invisibility or improved invisibility, blur or displacement, blink or displacement (although I suppose both would be quite devastating effectively 75% miss chance). Let me know what you think.

3. IDHMBWM as I already stated and I actually have not looked over the S.E. spells. I probably should before I make any further decisions about the character's spell list. However, the modified character is thus:

Feats:

Still Spell
Arcane Preparation
Cooperative Spell
Power Attack
Extra Turningx2
Divine Might
Extend Spell
Persistant Spell

+3 (need to check on Material components for Eschew Materials)

Spells

1st (5) - True Strike*, Featerfall*, Shield, Grease, Magic Missile
2nd (5) - Blur*, Web, Glitterdust
3rd (4) - Haste, Vampiric Touch, Slow, Blink
4th (4) - Polymorph Self*, Fireshield, Stoneskin
5th (4) - Wall of Force, Feeblemind, Telekinesis,
6th (3) - Geas*, Tensor's Transformation, Greater Dispelling
7th (3) - Teleport without Error*, Limited Wish, Power Word Stun*
8th (2) - Mind Blank, SunBurst
9th (1) - Time Stop*

I like grease and think it is too useful to pass up. On any significant incline it will be useful, it can work on an area I can't get to in melee to disarm, and as you said, no Spell Resistance.

I still like blur, but may be convinced otherwise. I don't remember the item that gives you see invisibility. Perhaps it was just a wand with charges, but I can't see blowing one of my spells for it, when I can get scrolls, wands, or an item for it. I got rid of shout, I realized that the few times I would need to use it I could probably get shatter from the spell pool to accomplish the same end. I don't think stone shape will be a good idea when I have wall of force, Tw/oE and the spell pool. I was thinking I ought to choose either Otto's irresistable dance or power word stun. I think the power word is better since neither allow a save and I get more 7th level spells. I am not sure about Sun burst, if I take glitterdust and/or blindness deafness, it seems like they may overlap a bit much.

 

[Drunken_Master]

I didn't read the whole thing, but don't take extra turning as feats, cause your Paladin level isn't high enough to turn anything big anyways, and Paladins are not as good Undead turners as Clerics are... I suggest 1 level Paladin for the Cha to saves bonus and all the fancy immunities...