Help me challenge my 12th level party with hobgobolins!

Lord Zardoz

Explorer
There are so many things you can do its scary

If you just want to anihilate your players, thats easy. "As you round the bend, you see a large mass of Hobgoblins, about 12 000. Roll for initiative." (Note: If you have the balls to pull this on your players and stick it out to the end, I bow to you).

Now, if you want to dial it down to the realm of not quite insane, there are still things you can work with. Unless otherwise noted, consider these notes to apply to standard 1 HD Hobgoblins.

- Customize a few templates / roles. Dont just take whats in the MM. Your scouts should be using studded leather, carry bows, and have a sword and a buckler. Your front liners should have chain mail, and a heavy sheild. Feel free to give your front liners 14 Str, or to give your scouts an extra bit of Dex. Feel free to have a few of your hobgoblins use reach weapons to harrass from the back ranks.

- Re-enforce and retreat. Have at least 2 people in the patrol carry horns. If the fight goes badly, he sounds his horn, to summon re-enforcements, and they scatter. Have them regroup and come back with greater numbers.

- Use spotters. When I am using humanoids, I will have one or more of them hang back (say, long range for a short bow depending on terrain), hide, and just watch how the fight goes. If his side loses or sounds the horn, he stays put until the players leave, then goes and tells the rest what the players did. This gives you an in game reason to let the hobgoblins customize their tactics to the party. On the next fight, they will know who threw that fireball.

- Play the endurance card. Start a fight, let the players buff up, and then cut and run, only to return a half hour later. Make them expend limited use resources.

- Use squad initiative. Mostly a game logistics issue. If your going to throw 40 hobgoblins at the party, use groups of 5 that share initiative.

- Use effective archery. Have 2 squads of 5 archers share the same target. They fire once, and move away in opposite directions. Keep it going as long as you can, splitting the squad if need be, and using Run actions. Start with the lowest AC target and move up.

- Use effective melee. If they must enter melee, try to find a way to disarm the target first. If you do manage to surround a player, have 6 of the 8 nearest use Aid Another actions to improve the chance to hit. If applied to a single attacker, 6 aid actions is +12 to hit, and add another +2 for flanking. But against 12th level warriors, this is still a losing strategy.

- Barrier Pit: I like putting archers behind a large log with spikes that they use as cover. Players tend to try to charge into melee against archers. Thats why just in front of the cover is a pit trap. Player falls in, and the hobgoblins push the spiked log forward, which traps the player in the pit and inflicts yet more damage.

- Water Pit: In dungeon environments, I like having 10 foot deep pits filled with 9 feet of water and with a heavy grate that slams shut and at about 8.5 feet when the player falls past it. This means the players are over their heads in water and have no leverage to just lift the grate out. Drowning is fun. And since the lid is a grate, someone with a spear can stab at the poor bastard trying to lift the grate.

- Use your 'hero's effectively. Nothing wrong with haveing a few heros who can go toe to toe with the players. But your not sending them to HobgoblinLand to fight 12th level npc's. Your sending them there to get spanked by masses of 1 HD opponents. If you want to put your fodder into melee, lead off with your hero, but dont fight toe to toe. First, try to disarm the player, then dogpile. Or score with a trip followed by a tangle foot bag / net. Once the PC is vulnerable, then let the fodder get in and score hits.

- Choose your spell support wisely. For supporting fodder, you want battle field control. Direct damage calls for higher level casters to be effective. Buffs arent so good unless they can affect a large number at once. But battle field control scales nicely. Underground you want wall spells. A wall of Ice will buy you some time to isolate one PC from the party, or allow your caster a chance to retreat. Above ground, you can pretty much nullify PC ranged attacks with a fog spell. Also keep in mind that you can put 5th and 6th level spells on scrolls that a 1st level caster can use. Low level casters with decent scrolls or wands can give you a decent magic punch without having to explain away dozens of high level wizards.

- Use obstacles that force skill checks. Put your archers on the far side of a river with cover. Or on a cliff face that calls for a difficult climb check. Or across a bridge that requires a hard balance check. Do everything you can to make just getting into combat with your Hobgoblins difficult.

- Use terrain to your advantage. This means account in advance for cover and concealment bonuses for your archers. Try to get that +1 to hit for high ground every chance you get. Use arrow slits. And as with my pit trap suggestions, put traps between the hobgoblins and your players.


- Play them to win. You are probably not looking for an excuse to pull a TPK here. But if your PCs are anywhere near reasonably equiped, you could throw them up against 100 hobgoblins at a time and have the players win simply due to the fighters dropping 5 or 6 a round between cleave attacks and iterative attacks. You do not need to cut them much slack in this case. If you get to a point where you can drop a player, do it. If you do score the TPK, just continue from the afterlife and let them do some adventuring in the land of the dead to try to get back to life.

END COMMUNICATION
 

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ashockney

First Post
I love scenarios like this, and I've run several in different campaigns. As has been mentioned a couple of great references include Red Hand of Doom and another classic is the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords module. I think it is helpful to put a couple of powerful "leaders" behind the forces, perhaps of even higher (13th/15th level) CR than the party. It will help to explain the basis for a number of the hobgoblin's tactics, resources, and abilities.

Some examples include: a lich wizard, a dragon shaman, a dragon, a polymorphed fiend, etc.

Tactics for things like this are based upon a couple of key advantages: numbers, knowledge, and surprise.

To play out the "numbers" aspect you can use the guidelines for "mob/swarm" creatures. This will make it easier to play "100 hobgoblin" horde much easier, and as a significantly greater threat than they would be individually. Otherwise, any example of overwhelming force, they should essentially never find themselves in a battle with less than a 3:1 or 5:1 ratio in their advantage. Tactically, the most critical thing about numbers is having lots and lots of damage, over an extended period of time. You should have resources available that allow you either "automatic" damage or "area of effect" damage, that isn't too overwelming. These resources will wear down, wear down, and wear down your parties defenses, resources, and hit points. The race becomes a marathon, instead of the typical "sprint".

The knowledge is played out in traps, ambushes, movement through secret passages/shortcuts, cover, concealment, and the use of the avaliable natural resources. If they are a dominant force in the area, they should have a number of moderate threat monsters/allies that are naturally occurring in the region. Grab a random encounter table for the area you're in, and seek the appropriate allies, and how best to fit them in: manticores, rust monsters, displacer beasts, umber hulks, etc. All of these things can make for a nasty surprise.

Suprise is the element that should be the most fun, and you'll have to know where your "source" of power is coming from. Any thoughts yet in that area?
 

taliesin15

First Post
krichaiushii said:
I misremember, don't griffins and manticores lair in mountainous and hilly areas?
Also, perhaps the hobgoblins set off avalanches at key points - either to trap or killl trespassers.

between this post and the next one (Lord Zardoz) that pretty much covers all the ideas I had--except when I read the initial post I thought of a different type of flying Mount, except I don't think there's anything quite like it in MM or any of the other manuals that I've seen--a flying reptile not unlike a Pteryldactl, manueverability like a bulky dragon, but basically a dumb passive flying mount (inspired by a series Heavy Metal ran in the late 70s)--the Hobgoblins could have an elite platoon of these flying mounted troops swoop over, dropping molotov cocktails or whatever missile bomb is appropriate to the technology level of your campaign--I somehow don't think Manticores or Griffins could really be tamed in this way, but that's just my two cents

oh, and regular mounted troops on horses, yaks, whatever, sure, that's a great idea--maybe a large enough of a squadron harrying the party from the rear (100-200?) to force them into the trap where the pits and avalanches are set up, with regular hobgoblin foot soldiers waiting in the wings

needless to say there's gotta be some higher level hobgoblin leaders, maybe even a LE high lvl mage or cleric leading them, or something unusual like a Vampire or Lich Lord...or Devil...
 


Stormborn

Explorer
If you want to scare them make none of the attacks head on, at first. Let the enemy snipe at them constantly. Keep them on the move and unstable. Manuver them into traps that use poison or magical effects to minimize their effectivness. Keep the enemy at a distance and harras them. Put them in a position where they are weak and unready to deal with a real encounter and make sure they know it. Right as they are on the edge of the territory, having made it out by the skin of their teeth reveal the enemy to the them: a band of hobgoblin children on a traing exercise led by an elderly hobgoblin warrior. Let the elderly warrior send them a message if need be, thanking them for their assistance but warning them not to come this way again, or next time he will bring the older children out to meet them.
 

taliesin15

First Post
Stormborn said:
If you want to scare them make none of the attacks head on, at first. Let the enemy snipe at them constantly. Keep them on the move and unstable. Let the elderly warrior send them a message if need be, thanking them for their assistance but warning them not to come this way again, or next time he will bring the older children out to meet them.

great suggestions...here's another, use variations on the old skeletons of vanquished foes posted as warnings on the road--one gruesome one used in medieval Europe, particularly by the Ottomans, was to skewer toddlers from conquered villages alive on stakes on roads through the nether regions--a sickening and very evil method of intimidation--particularly twisted types might even set up a series of victims, tortured in different ways...
 


Turanil

First Post
Just want to add what I intended to do in my own campaign:

"What do we have to fear, they only are hobgoblins"

So in this part of the world inhabited by hobgoblins, make all hobgoblins have warrior/fighter/etc. classes levels (as already suggested), BUT THEN, let also the PCs discover that the 1st level types they are used to encounter are in fact the outcast hobgoblins, those they were so weak and ineffective were banished outside of the hobgoblin land. So, until then, the PCs (and most people) only encountered the incompetent ones that were weeded out of their community! :)
 

heimdall

Dwarven Guardian
They are going through hobgoblin lands... to echo some previous comments... and without having to add much to the basic hobgoblin write-up in MM:

Ambushes - with a cut and run option (a la Francis Marion)
Traps - Rolling bolders, camoflaged pits with spikes (and poison or feces)
Snipers - archers with flaming arrows, combined with ambushes and a properly soaked area
Pets - Think Jabba the Hutt and the scene with Luke Skywalker. Surely the hobgoblins have some big uglies to unleash on troublemakers
Friends - Any of the hobgoblins working for a decently powerful dragon? How is that dragon going to take it when his servants start dying by the truckload?
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
Guilberwood said:
I had an idea for some mounted hobgoblins, and I’m not sure which animal will they ride. I wanna get away from the horse/wolf/boar stereotype, and was thinking of something like hyenas or even lions, what do you guys think?
Dinosaurs.
Megaraptors, T-Rexes, whatever. It's hard to go wrong with dinosaur riding cavalry.

If that's not good enough, how about bullettes? Getting ambushed from below is bad enough. Add in bullette riding hobgoblins and you've got a couple worlds of pain for any melee party.
 

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