Help me nail down this 'take 10, take 20' nonsense

[dcollins]

If you don't allow taking 20 on Search at all, what mechanic do you use when a PC decides to search a particular place as well as possible?

Good question. My preference is to actually have a table -- or calculate on the fly -- the probability of success over a given time period (which is never 100%). I ask the player how long they want to Search, and I roll percentile dice to see if they succeed over that time period.

As a simple example, let's say the player actually needs to roll a natural 20 to succeed on their Search check.

Over 1 round: 5% success. (1-(1-1/20)^R)
Over 5 rounds: 23%
Over 10 rounds: 40%
Over 20 rounds: 64%
Over 50 rounds: 92%

How long does it take before they're "convinced there's nothing to find"? Well, that's entirely up to the player to tell me. (Notice that in reality, the chance to roll a natural "20" over 20 rounds of trying is actually only 64%.)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Good question. My preference is to actually have a table -- or calculate on the fly -- the probability of success over a given time period (which is never 100%). I ask the player how long they want to Search, and I roll percentile dice to see if they succeed over that time period.

Seems like a largely meaningless effort. If the player has 20 rounds to search something, then they've probably got all the time in the world.

Take 20 speeds up the game. Personally I can't see any benefit to be gained from denying it's use in any situation where retries are totally hazardless.

 

[dcollins]

Because nothing's certain, if you don't have feedback, and this ruling reflects that.

 

[Scion]

It doesnt make it certain, it is merely a time saving way of saying, 'I am going to do the best job that I can do'.

Done, easy, fast. No need to roll, the numbers are known, and it uses a lot of important time (when time is important, when it isnt then people will be taking 20 more often, which reflects a certain amount of realism)

With the ruling you just gave I would much rather just roll 20 times than take the percentage roll. Which means it is doing the opposite of saving time.

Take 10 and 20 are just ways of saving time in an easy, and fairly accurate, manner. Good enough. No need to make it overly complicated and lose the beneficial effects.

 

[guavo]

I look at taking twenty like building an paper airplane.

rolling d20...quickly folding paper into something that may fly really well or may not fly at all.
taking 10...doing a quick/average job folding an airplane that should fly.
taking 20...getting a stack of papers and ruler and trying to creating something as good as posible. (possibly as flawless as skill allows)
taking 5...super quick folding job done under stress with hopefully enough skill that the results will fly. (house rule in my game...for those who can't risk a really bad roll in a stressfull situation, so they can't take ten...I've had many a player have a i roll anything over 4 for weeks on end...this rule helped a little)

 

[Jhulae]

I'm certainly glad I don't play in some of these campaigns. I'd definitely do what Hyp suggested if my DM ever said you couldn't take a 20 on a search check.

And, anyway, taking a 20 doesn't even guarantee success, so I don't even see what the big deal is to, oh, I don't know... play by the RAW?

If the DC is 30 to find something, and your Search is +9, you could Take 20 all day long and never find it.

Actually, I can see spot checks. Once you fail that initial Spot of something, you would then be Searching for it (and it becomes a search check). So, yeah, maybe no 20s on Spot or Listen, unless a rogue (or similar) was moving around. Even then, you might actually be searching for said person or thing.

Anyway, no 20s on Search checks is against the RAW and just a annoying implementation of a house rule.

 

[Thanee]

You could take 10 or even 20 when using Balance to cross a slippery floor, ...

Erm, I somehow doubt you can take 20 there...

Hypersmurf made it pretty clear, take 20 is nothing but the simplification of unlimited retries, while take 10 is the ability to always achieve an average result, unless you are in a hurry for some reason.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Take 20 on a search? No.
Take 20 on a search for secret doors on this section of wall? Sure. (Too bad you triggered the crushing ceiling that a more basic take 10 of the area would've caught.)

This is something, I think it not right under the normal rules (I'm aware, that this is more of a house rule, anyways).

If failing the skill roll would carry a penalty (which clearly is the case here), then taking 20 would not be allowed.

That's why I don't think searching should carry such a penalty.

Walking up to the wall in order to search it might, however. That is, if you start the search (and fail your Spot check ), you'll suffer those penalties, regardless of whether you would search normally, take 10 or take 20. It should not be related to the Search check at all.

That would also remove the weirdness of having to tell someone, that take 20 doesn't work on the Search check, or having a failure when searching more careful than with just take 10.

Bye
Thanee

 

[sad_genius]

Two LotR examples of taking 20 on a knowledge check:

1. Gandalf takes 20 in that bit where they all sit around while he tries to remember which way to go in Moria.

2. Gandalf takes 20 to work out what the password to the gates of Moria is.

M

 

[Thanee]

2. Gandalf takes 20 to work out what the password to the gates of Moria is.

Or Frodo grants him a re-roll, by giving fresh inspiration.

Bye
Thanee