Heroes of Horror: Archivist

[Ferrix]

That´s true, but extremely unlikely. It would require a huge number of additional splatbooks allowed to cover most of the arcane list; additionally, those splatbooks (or parts of them allowed) would have to contain nothing else but new divine classes or new domains. It´s evident that at least some of them will have new sorcerer/wizard spells! Most of the new spells proposed right now from complete arcane and complete adventurer are sorcerer/wizard and don´t appear in any domain.

Of course new supplements will expand the archivist spell list; but have in mind that they´ll also expand everyone´s spell list.

I agree with someone. It's entirely unlikely and would require a huge amount of splatbooks with PrC's that are divine casters that have on their list spells which are commonly arcane, or domains that greatly break the divide. Both are very uncommon and with our current list of approved sources, almost unheard of.

It's incredibly unlikely that an archivist will end up with the entire arcane spell list in his prayerbook, much more likely they'll end up with a few arcane spells here and there at higher levels than normally accessed by wizards or sorcerers.

If someone would like to give a long list of clear examples which are going to break the archivist somehow to support the argument otherwise go ahead, that may help your case, but it's unlikely.

 

[Someone]

If someone would like to give a long list of clear examples which are going to break the archivist somehow to support the argument otherwise go ahead, that may help your case, but it's unlikely.

Should Complete Divine allowed as is, Archivist would get the following new, normally arcane-only spells (errors may abound)

From domains:

Expeditious Retreat (1st level)
Haste (4th)
Improved Blink (8th)
Chill Touch (1st)
Sleet storm (3rd)
Wall of Ice (5th)
Polar Ray (8th)
Magnificent mansion (8th)
Dominate person (4th!)
Mass suggestion (7th)
True domination (8th)
Deep slumber (3rd)
Phantasmal killer (lowered from 6th to 4th level)
Mage armor (1st)
Magic Missile (2nd)
Blast of force (3rd)
Resilient sphere(4th)
Wall of force (5th)
Forcecage (7th)
Telekinetic sphere (8th)
Imprisonment (9th)
Unbinding (9th)
Identify (lowered from 2nd to 1st level)

From new base classes (Shugenja):

Cantrips:
Daze
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Dancing Lights
Disrupt Undead

1st level

Expeditious retreat
Feather fall
Silent image

2nd level

Levitate
Color spray

3rd level

Haste
Keen Edge

4th level

Hallucinatory terrain
Illusory wall
Flame arrow
Fireball

5th level

Greater invisibility
Mirage arcana
Persistent image
Passwall
Wall of iron
Feeblemind
Wall of ice

6th level

Cloudkill
Permanent image
Contingency
Flesh to stone

7th level

Mass invisibility
Mislead
Teleport object
Programmed image
Disintegrate
Spell turning
Statue


8th

Screen
Binding

9th

Teleport circle
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm

From prestige clases with their own spellcasting progression:

1st level:

Ray of enfeeblement

2nd level

Heroism

3rd level

Vampiric Touch

4th

Dominate person
Legend Lore

5th

Waves of fatigue

6th

Circle of death

8th

Waves of exhaustion

 

[Ferrix]

Thanks Someone for putting that work in.

Now, we haven't approved most of that content anyways, and it doesn't look like the shugenja is ever going to get much approval due to its oriental flavor.

The domain spells are a nice block of spells, however, you still have to find a scroll of said spells from said domains. If we make it known that you can't normally buy such spells from any old NPC, I see this as a contained problem.

So you may end up with a couple nice arcane spells in your archivist's prayerbook, but it will be doubtful that you'll end up with all of them and toting around the firepower of a wizard as a divine caster. The wizard still has a very large body of spells you don't have access to, or have access to only later.

No problem in my book.

 

[Someone]

A couple notes:

This is allowing only an entire splatbook with divine flavor, without restriction. A better perspective would be also considering Complete Arcane. In that case, wizards and sorcerers would also get a good number of exclusive arcane spells, larger than the number Archivist get on the whole, so the worry that the Archivist would eventually swallow all the arcane list is somewhat fallacious in my opinion.

Second, is notable how the number of good spells coming from new domains is much greater than those coming from obscure presitge classes. If there´s some worry about the Archivist potentially becoming "too good", restricting domains should get higer priority than restricting PrCs.

Third, the shugenja exemplifies how new divine base classes can mess with the archivist big time. But as Ferrix said, i don´t see it, or any other similar class, being approved soon.

If we make it known that you can't normally buy such spells from any old NPC, I see this as a contained problem.

It´s going to be awfully hard to get them in that case...

 

[Rystil Arden]

The domain spells are a nice block of spells, however, you still have to find a scroll of said spells from said domains. If we make it known that you can't normally buy such spells from any old NPC, I see this as a contained problem.

If we do this and enforce it with an iron fist, then you're right that it won't be a problem because it will be contained to only a few spells--I agree that rules like the ones I proposed are not needed in, say, a standard home campaign with Archivists where there's only one GM. The problem is that we only need one GM who says "Go ahead dude, you can totally buy all the scrolls of weird domains and prestige classes while I'm GM" and it screws it up for everyone.

 

[drothgery]

The problem is that we only need one GM who says "Go ahead dude, you can totally buy all the scrolls of weird domains and prestige classes while I'm GM" and it screws it up for everyone.

Not exactly, you need a GM who allows it and a Judge who lets it go.

I imagine the typical route for an Archivist to get a scroll of an odd domain spell is to convince someone that knows it to collaboratively create a scroll with her, which she can then copy into her prayerbook.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not exactly, you need a GM who allows it and a Judge who lets it go.

I imagine the typical route for an Archivist to get a scroll of an odd domain spell is to convince someone that knows it to collaboratively create a scroll with her, which she can then copy into her prayerbook.

Hence my earlier comment about the judges enforcing it with an iron fist to make it work

 

[Someone]

I imagine the typical route for an Archivist to get a scroll of an odd domain spell is to convince someone that knows it to collaboratively create a scroll with her, which she can then copy into her prayerbook.

Not neccesarily somebody who has the domain, though, just the spell...

 

[Someone]

Ok, let me know what you think about this alternative instead; add these paragraphs to he end of the “prayerbook” item:

“The archivist can add any number of spells from the Cleric and Druid lists to his prayerbook, but the total number of spells in his prayerbook not belonging to these lists is limited to three per class level. The player must clearly mark in his character sheet what spells belong to this extra list.*

When there´s conflict on what level is the spell in the Archivist list, the hierarchy is as follows: the level of the spell in the Cleric list (not including domains), then the Druid list, then Sorcerer/Wizard list (this doesn´t mean the spell will be arcane, only that it´ll have the same level as it has in the Sor/Wiz list). After that, all lists have the same priority, which means that he spell can be simultaneously of two or more levels, but can be wrote in the archivist´s prayerbook at the level of the scroll he found.”**

Rationale:

* If you´re going to limit the number of exotic spells an Archivist can learn, do it properly, not by a convoluted and difficult to implement rule on what scrolls can a player buy that can work properly only when a single DM is running the show, but won´t work in a shared setting. Three spells per level means six per spell level, which I think is about right (We can make it “six per spell level” instead of three per class level, wich would also prevent some problems). Remember that those spells must still be present in an allowed divine list of any kind.

** First the inclusion of the Sorcerer/Wizard levels. Why? Well, to put any spell that could be in a uncommon list at a not appropiate level and move it back to a 0-9th level list. Second, why making all spell lists (ranger, paladin, domains, new classes) of equal priority?

Simple. If a new splatbook introduces a new domain or class with old spells not in theCleric/Druid/Sor-Wiz spells in a different level, it may very well be the case that the spell changes for the Archivist if we follow a rigid hierarchy. The Archivist player could very well be using the spell in the wrong level slot, without knowing he´s breaking a rule. With this variant, the player will be doing the same – but this time it´ll be legal. If the player is later aware of the level change, he can, if we wants, to scribe the spell in his character´s prayerbook at the right level and erase the old, if he finds the right scroll.

 

[Bront]

What do you mean by ignore domains?

I mean exactly that. A domain spell isn't one that's a common divine spell, so it needs to be sought out by the Archivist, or as far as he's concerned, it's not on his spell list. Much like we may be handling some of the spells from expansion books.