Heroes of Horror: Archivist

[Ferrix]

You see, this is why I think we should ignore domains for the Archivist unless he can find someone who can teach it to him from a domain. Makes things simpler, and I don't think that the archivist is unbalanced by getting some spells 1 level higher, given all the other cleric goodies he's giving up.

What do you mean by ignore domains?

I think the solution that RA mentioned could work, prioritize the lists. Cleric, Druid, Domain, (Paladin, Ranger, etc.).

I don't even see a problem with the Paladin or Ranger only spells that others have a problem with. You still have to find or buy a scroll of it.

The Archivist has the difficulty of having to buy or find scrolls to make him even close to as effective as a normal cleric. The added benefit of being able to use spells from any divine list so long as he has a scroll of it is one of the few benefits he has.

 

[drothgery]

A lot of the PrC minor casters will sometimes go to 5, but that could be a good idea for a rule of thumb. We don't want to allow PrC casters though, period, even if they are 9 level casters (like the Sublime Chord)

Why not? If something's a full-fledged divine caster with its own list for levels 0 to 5 or higher (sublime chord is an arcane caster, and adds high level spells above and beyond the Bard), I doubt there's going to be a problem with its spells.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Why not? If something's a full-fledged divine caster with its own list for levels 0 to 5 or higher (sublime chord is an arcane caster, and adds high level spells above and beyond the Bard), I doubt there's going to be a problem with its spells.

They definitely won't be at the wrong level, I totally agree, but I don't want them added on if they weren't there before.

For instance, let's pretend that the Silver Pyromancer were written just slightly differently than it is and it was a Divine casting class with its own spell list that included a divine Fireball at level 3. This is not an unbalanced PrC because of the requirements among other things, and it still wouldn't be unbalanced, but that doesn't mean we should give Archivists Fireball, right?

 

[drothgery]

They definitely won't be at the wrong level, I totally agree, but I don't want them added on if they weren't there before.

For instance, let's pretend that the Silver Pyromancer were written just slightly differently than it is and it was a Divine casting class with its own spell list that included a divine Fireball at level 3. This is not an unbalanced PrC because of the requirements among other things, and it still wouldn't be unbalanced, but that doesn't mean we should give Archivists Fireball, right?

Eh. A Fire domain could give Fireball as a level 3 spell just as easily, as could some divine-casting elementalist base class.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Eh. A Fire domain could give Fireball as a level 3 spell just as easily, as could some divine-casting elementalist base class.

You mean the Shugenja thingy? I would vote not to allow Archivists to learn elementalist spells from them that aren't on any other list. A fire domain won't give Fireball because then all clerics could have it as a domain spell. WotC might make a domain like that some day (though I haven't seen it yet), but I wouldn't vote it in.

 

[drothgery]

You mean the Shugenja thingy? I would vote not to allow Archivists to learn elementalist spells from them that aren't on any other list. A fire domain won't give Fireball because then all clerics could have it as a domain spell. WotC might make a domain like that some day (though I haven't seen it yet), but I wouldn't vote it in.

I wasn't thinking of shugenja specifically, but I don't think we want to be writing a lot of special cases into the rules because there are spells you don't want archivists to get. If we allow a domain or divine caster that has a 3rd level fireball, then we may very well end up with archivists that can cast fireball. I'm not seeing this as a huge deal, and certainly not something we want to gimp the nifty fun ability of the archivist (their ability to cast pretty much any divine spell they can get a scroll of) in order to prevent.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It may be nifty and fun, but it is also problematic (for the dancing level effect mentioned by Someone if nothing else), so it needs to have rules created for it in order to make the effect regulated. It's the result of the Archivist class lacking a spell list (making it the only class ever printed by Wizards in 3.X that lacks a spell list), and it is a necessity.

 

[Ferrix]

I don't see it really as problematic so long as we prioritize lists, but I don't feel we should in any case make it impossible for an archivist to in some way obtain a scroll of what is normally an arcane spell if some class has it as a divine spell. That's the whole point of the bloody archivist.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't see it really as problematic so long as we prioritize lists, but I don't feel we should in any case make it impossible for an archivist to in some way obtain a scroll of what is normally an arcane spell if some class has it as a divine spell. That's the whole point of the bloody archivist.

Yeah, I don't see a problem with allowing normally arcane spells if a normal class has the Arcane spell or even a Domain list, so that gives the Archivist a bunch of Arcane spells (Horrid Wilting, Enlarge Person, etc), but I don't want to also give the Archivist spells from only obscure PrCs that have their own list just because that PrC could learn it. For one thing, it basically punishes players of Archivists who don't do out of game metagame research to find those obscure PrCs and get the spells they want. For another thing, eventually after enough PrCs are approved, the Archivist will then wind up with the entire Wizard spell list as well as Cleric, Druid, and the others. And that, for certain, is not fair compared to a Wizard, if you compare the two classes.

 

[Someone]

For another thing, eventually after enough PrCs are approved, the Archivist will then wind up with the entire Wizard spell list as well as Cleric, Druid, and the others. And that, for certain, is not fair compared to a Wizard, if you compare the two classes.

That´s true, but extremely unlikely. It would require a huge number of additional splatbooks allowed to cover most of the arcane list; additionally, those splatbooks (or parts of them allowed) would have to contain nothing else but new divine classes or new domains. It´s evident that at least some of them will have new sorcerer/wizard spells! Most of the new spells proposed right now from complete arcane and complete adventurer are sorcerer/wizard and don´t appear in any domain.

Of course new supplements will expand the archivist spell list; but have in mind that they´ll also expand everyone´s spell list.