Heroes of Horror: Archivist

[drothgery]

Okay, I changed the thread to an Archive (I was on vacation last week).

As for someone's questions, I'd rule (noting that I'm an observer, not a judge)

- for purposes of spell completion/spell trigger items, any divine spell is considered to be on their list; it seems like this should work (though if they had Use Magic Device as a class skill, I'd probably rule the other way)

- I'd propose an alteration to Rystil's rule of thumb, and give domain spells the lowest priority (i.e. a spell is available to archivists at its level as a domain spell only if it's not a divine spell in any other way), largely because of this issue, though I suspect the judges are going to go very slowly on allowing non-core domains

- magic items that work as spellbooks do work as prayerbooks, mostly because it's simpler than creating equivalent prayerbook items

 

[Bront]

Actualy, there are very few non-core and non-srd domains, given the extra domains in the Divinie section of the SRD.

Basicly, I think that if it's on a core class Divine spell list, the archivist can grab it. If it's a PrC, nope. Domain spells are special, so the only way I'd let an archivist grab one would be to actualy find someone who can scribe it onto a scroll or teach it to him.

And Prayerbooks=Spellbooks as far as items are concerned, mechanicaly they're identical, so no reason not to allow items the dual use. Heck, no reason you can't use a spell book as a prayer book for wizard/archivists. But that doesn't mean you can learn prayers from a spell book or vice versa.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Ok, now a couple of unrelated question. For the purposes of using spell completion and spell trigger stuff, what´s the Archivist spell list, just the cleric´s, or the lists of all those classes?

If a new rules update change change the level of a spell an archivist already has (using the hierarchy) what happens, then? For example, suppose my character gets his hands on a Bless weapon scroll and adds it to his prayerbook. By the spells allowed right now, it´s only in the paladin spell list, as a 1st level spell, so by the current rules, he´ll add it as a 1st level "archivist" spell. But suddendly you allow the Glory domain from Complete Divine, which has Bless Weapon as a 2nd level spell. Domain trumps Paladin, so the spell is now 2nd level. What now?

Third, do magic items that work as a spellbook also work as prayerbooks?

All those classes (though for spell completion it must be divine).

We already allow the Glory domain because its in the SRD.

Domain spells have preference over Ranger and Paladin because Ranger and Paladin (due to only having 4 levels of spells) sometimes get spells at a highly unfair level.

 

[Someone]

We already allow the Glory domain because its in the SRD.

It was merely an example, somewhat infortunate because no god in Eberron grants it, though you can get it by the rules on choosing domains for clerics. But the problem stands, and highlights another: the archivist player must check every source allowed to make sure the spell is the correct level.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It was merely an example, somewhat infortunate because no god in Eberron grants it, though you can get it by the rules on choosing domains for clerics. But the problem stands, and highlights another: the archivist player must check every source allowed to make sure the spell is the correct level.

There's a few different ways to solve this. I think the easy solution is to only allow SRD domains--Archivists can learn all the new cleric, druid, paladin, and ranger spells but not the domain-only spells. This also helps prevent the slow corrosion of arcane spells into the Archivist's knowledge by new domains that come out with more and more SRD spells in them that weren't in domains before.

 

[Someone]

I like Drothgery´s solution better. We can divide spells in paladin and rangers list in two: those unique and those that are already in druid´s and cleric´s lists. If they are unique and unfairly low level we solve nothing putting them in the middle of the hierarchy: they are unlikely to be in a domain (there are exceptions: holy sword is level 5 in the glory domain, and bless weapon level 2 in the same domain). However, if they are already in the cleric and druid list there will be no change in moving them down the priority list, which is the case, say, with Lesser Restoration.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I like Drothgery´s solution better. We can divide spells in paladin and rangers list in two: those unique and those that are already in druid´s and cleric´s lists. If they are unique and unfairly low level we solve nothing putting them in the middle of the hierarchy: they are unlikely to be in a domain (there are exceptions: holy sword is level 5 in the glory domain, and bless weapon level 2 in the same domain). However, if they are already in the cleric and druid list there will be no change in moving them down the priority list, which is the case, say, with Lesser Restoration.

If they are unfairly low level, though, then the Domain is going to always be a better choice (like for Bless Weapon and Holy Sword--I'd prefer them at 2nd and 5th level)

 

[Someone]

You miss the point again. Most of the unique paladin and ranger spells introduced wont make to domains and therefore remain relatively low level -and most are useful to fighting classes: I wouldn´t touch Holy Sword with an archivist with a 10 ft pole-. And those that already are low level are in the cleric and druid list.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You miss the point again. Most of the unique paladin and ranger spells introduced wont make to domains and therefore remain relatively low level -and most are useful to fighting classes: I wouldn´t touch Holy Sword with an archivist with a 10 ft pole-. And those that already are low level are in the cleric and druid list.

So your point is that since some of them are going to be low anyway, we might as well not even try to balance the order of lists so that the lists that go from 0-9 and are more likely to peg the correct level won't be used ahead of time? I see the point, and I disagree. I can't really understand why you would want to do that--to me it's like a store that's going out of business and knows they can't make a profit on the remaining items in the store so they just hand all of it away for free instead of creating a clearance sale to at least cut their losses. Of course, we could just not allow the Paladin and Ranger only spells also, as another option, I suppose, and hope that they make it into domains somewhere or another. There aren't too many anyway, so it isn't much of a loss.

You may not want Holy Weapon at either level 4 or 5, but perhaps you would after casting Divine Power. And I know any Cleric would drool over Bless Weapon at level 1.

 

[Someone]

So your point is that since some of them are going to be low anyway, we might as well not even try to balance the order of lists so that the lists that go from 0-9 and are more likely to peg the correct level won't be used ahead of time?

No, I´m saying that using a hierarchy that creates problems in order to solve a problem which it doesn´t solve is foolish. It´s like hitting your thumb with a hammer to get rid of your mortgage. It won´t, and now you have a sore thumb.

You may not want Holy Weapon at either level 4 or 5, but perhaps you would after casting Divine Power

Now you wasted two rounds of combat (those two spells have a duration of 1/round level) and solved the BAB problem, but what are you going to do with your ability scores? An archivist made for combat a) suffers a horrible MAD syndrome (having two spellcasting stats) and b) is utterly crap until 7th level, when he can cast Divine Power. I suppose we should be concerned with players plotting to play a character all the way to 8th level to retire it and build the Holy Archivist from Hell, but really, I don´t see it coming

And I know any Cleric would drool over Bless Weapon at level 1.

Good thing the archivist isn´t a cleric.