FireLance
Legend
Well, if I needed to draw a line, I could say that triggered actions are reflexive or unconscious, and so do not require any additional effort on the part of the character to activate.
Hey Logan Bonner or Mike Mearls, how to handle free actions after charge?
Flipguarder
First Post
And that would be based on nothing but your opinion of "what explanation could make sense".
I meant common sense in the fact that they say NOTHING about triggered actions taking less time than non-triggered actions. Same logic applied to a different area.
Given info:I have a bicycle and a motorcycle.
Conclusion: Obviously the motorcycle is red. But the bicycle can't be red.
I meant common sense in the fact that they say NOTHING about triggered actions taking less time than non-triggered actions. Same logic applied to a different area.
Given info:I have a bicycle and a motorcycle.
Conclusion: Obviously the motorcycle is red. But the bicycle can't be red.
FireLance
Legend
Correct. This sort of thing can come up fairly often in 4e.
So, i'm in the 'You can use free actions after a charge' camp, for 2 main reasons:
1. I believe the no actions after a charge rule was implemented to stop players charging in and then moving out.
2. I am currently playing a Rageblood Barbarian (Fnah Fnah)
But assuming for a moment that you can't take free actions after a charge, I have a query:
Situation 1: My Barb charges an enemy with Howling Strike and crits. He is not allowed rampage, and his turn ends.
Situation 2: My Barb charges an enemy with Howling Strike and crits. He uses an Action Point. Can he now use rampage before his extra standard action?
1. I believe the no actions after a charge rule was implemented to stop players charging in and then moving out.
2. I am currently playing a Rageblood Barbarian (Fnah Fnah)
But assuming for a moment that you can't take free actions after a charge, I have a query:
Situation 1: My Barb charges an enemy with Howling Strike and crits. He is not allowed rampage, and his turn ends.
Situation 2: My Barb charges an enemy with Howling Strike and crits. He uses an Action Point. Can he now use rampage before his extra standard action?
Black Arrow
First Post
In the situation SigmaX0 described, you definitely should be able to perform rampage or any other free actions in addition to the action granted by an Action Point. Taking an Action Point is the exception to being allowed to take "further actions" following a charge.
From PHB p288... in "CHARGE: STANDARD ACTION" block: "No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actionS this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action."
From PHB p p286... in "SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION" block: "The action that an action point grants is a standard, move, or minor action."
The rule clause that prevents further actionS following a charge is removed by spending an action point to take an extra action. I'd definitely allow taking unused free actions. Heck, per RAW it seems you could even take unused move and/or minor actions in addition to the action granted by taking the action point following a charge.
Believe it's also RAI in that it can't be abused THAT much (sinister grin.. thinking of my Fleetrunner of Ehlonna [charger] smackdown from bygone 3e ages ago). Action Points are only meant to be available every other encounter (every milestone).
The arcane feycharger otoh I believe has the highest DPR of any build on the WotC charops boards precisely because it allows free actions (including Eladrin Swordmage Advance) following a charge. This ruling would help reign in such abuses, permitting max damage only once per milestone (action point).
Otoh, I did notice one other potentially abusable triggered effect. Steel Vanguard Flourish feat (from Dragon 373) allows an MBA against "any other enemy in your reach" upon scoring a critical hit without requiring expenditure of a [free] action, so it could be used... Rending weapon triggered effect also applies [no required action]... But lvl 16 Draeven Marauder (Dragon 365) is out of luck (triggered MBA requires a free action).
I don't think the designers ever intended non-high Str/Con characters (who can't access unstoppable charge epic feat) to never be able to take unused actions following a charge, but just make such instances rare (requiring expediture of an action point).
Cheers, BA
Note: I'll change my tune completely if one of the developers chime in differently on rules intent. This would be a good topic to address via FAQ and/or errata too.
From PHB p288... in "CHARGE: STANDARD ACTION" block: "No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actionS this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action."
From PHB p p286... in "SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION" block: "The action that an action point grants is a standard, move, or minor action."
The rule clause that prevents further actionS following a charge is removed by spending an action point to take an extra action. I'd definitely allow taking unused free actions. Heck, per RAW it seems you could even take unused move and/or minor actions in addition to the action granted by taking the action point following a charge.
Believe it's also RAI in that it can't be abused THAT much (sinister grin.. thinking of my Fleetrunner of Ehlonna [charger] smackdown from bygone 3e ages ago). Action Points are only meant to be available every other encounter (every milestone).
The arcane feycharger otoh I believe has the highest DPR of any build on the WotC charops boards precisely because it allows free actions (including Eladrin Swordmage Advance) following a charge. This ruling would help reign in such abuses, permitting max damage only once per milestone (action point).
Otoh, I did notice one other potentially abusable triggered effect. Steel Vanguard Flourish feat (from Dragon 373) allows an MBA against "any other enemy in your reach" upon scoring a critical hit without requiring expenditure of a [free] action, so it could be used... Rending weapon triggered effect also applies [no required action]... But lvl 16 Draeven Marauder (Dragon 365) is out of luck (triggered MBA requires a free action).
I don't think the designers ever intended non-high Str/Con characters (who can't access unstoppable charge epic feat) to never be able to take unused actions following a charge, but just make such instances rare (requiring expediture of an action point).
Cheers, BA
Note: I'll change my tune completely if one of the developers chime in differently on rules intent. This would be a good topic to address via FAQ and/or errata too.
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Saeviomagy
Adventurer
So... can you action point a charge, shift away from your charge target (because you used an action point and are relieved of the "no actions after charge" clause), then charge a second target with your regular action? Or do you have to spend the AP after the charge (so - charge, ap an attack, shift out)?
Black Arrow
First Post
Hmmm, you could also shift "for free" (no move action) following a charge with Boots of Adept Charging. Also reminds me of the swordmage's Sword of Assault PP [Arcane Power]... that encourages charging via AP.
Based on the word order, "AFTER you resolve a charge attack..." it sounds like you have to spend the action point then, not beforehand. I'd like to be wrong here though (the next character that I'm planning is a hybrid wizard-swordmage and I'm considering the Sword of Assault PP).
Simple errata. "No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actionS this turn, unless you spend an action point DURING YOUR TURN to take an extra action."
It's also unclear in RAW whether you can take unused actions before the action granted by spending the action point following a charge. There are many instances (with PP path features, etc.) where it's advantageous to spend an AP at the beginning of the round too.
General query. Does the action granted by an Action Point need to be taken immediately following spending the action point or can it be used later during your turn (after taking other actions). I'm inclined to think the former. Other thoughts here?
Based on the word order, "AFTER you resolve a charge attack..." it sounds like you have to spend the action point then, not beforehand. I'd like to be wrong here though (the next character that I'm planning is a hybrid wizard-swordmage and I'm considering the Sword of Assault PP).
Simple errata. "No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actionS this turn, unless you spend an action point DURING YOUR TURN to take an extra action."
It's also unclear in RAW whether you can take unused actions before the action granted by spending the action point following a charge. There are many instances (with PP path features, etc.) where it's advantageous to spend an AP at the beginning of the round too.
General query. Does the action granted by an Action Point need to be taken immediately following spending the action point or can it be used later during your turn (after taking other actions). I'm inclined to think the former. Other thoughts here?
Orcus Porkus
First Post
bump for Mike and Logan
eriktheguy
First Post
While I was reading through the new magic items in AV2, I came across the boar's charge totem:
Power (Daily): Free. Trigger: You hit an enemy with a charge attack using this totem while you are in beast form. Effect: You push that enemy 1 square and can shift into the space it vacated.If you can't use free actions after a charge, then that power needs errata or it can't (officially
I would have to say you're wrong about that, since this move explicitly states you can take an action after charging, and therefore allows it by the 'specific beats general' rule of D&D. Other abilities discussed in this forum allow extra attacks as free actions, but do not explicitly say they can take place after a charge, and therefore would not get the same treatment as the boar's charge totem.
I agree with the interpretation that you cannot use a free action after a charge, and that since these free actions are triggered, you have to use them on your turn to use them at all (else the trigger did not just occur). Therefore you cannot use triggered free actions after a charge, even if you claim they are resolved after your turn. The exception is any action that states it occurs after a charge. You could also argue that 'no action' abilities can be used after a charge, I'm not sure how those work at all though.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Common sense about how long things take doesnt work on this one.
There is a level of I don't know ... you hit somebody who is in the right range when the timing is set up for it... well in less than a second. When you hit somebody and you have to do a feint... and a slamb to pull there weapon out of line .... that is entirely different.
cause in time measure real time all actions are complex combinations they take both a lot more time and when the conditions are correct... a whole lot less (conditions begin correct make something take a whole lot less time).
An element I see people blithely ignoring which bothers me whenever they talk timing of actions is that well all the turns are nearly simultaneous and intermingling in face of that and the previous... well the how long does something takes thing just doesn't quite rate as something to bother me... it becomes well whatever the rules say...
If the rules say no actions after a charge... it implies there might be a break in the action occurring at just that point a transition in the scene at that point.
Then there is just resolving what the rules say.
There is a level of I don't know ... you hit somebody who is in the right range when the timing is set up for it... well in less than a second. When you hit somebody and you have to do a feint... and a slamb to pull there weapon out of line .... that is entirely different.
cause in time measure real time all actions are complex combinations they take both a lot more time and when the conditions are correct... a whole lot less (conditions begin correct make something take a whole lot less time).
An element I see people blithely ignoring which bothers me whenever they talk timing of actions is that well all the turns are nearly simultaneous and intermingling in face of that and the previous... well the how long does something takes thing just doesn't quite rate as something to bother me... it becomes well whatever the rules say...
If the rules say no actions after a charge... it implies there might be a break in the action occurring at just that point a transition in the scene at that point.
Then there is just resolving what the rules say.
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