"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

[Ariosto]

I mean people can't just keep dungeon bashing for 35 years and not get bored, right?

I don't see that as "the Gygaxian style" of D&D; if anything, recent versions of the game have downplayed the other elements. I don't know how long it lasted, but there was a period of at least a couple of years when players in the Blackmoor campaign chose to focus on the dungeons.

There's also the old view of D&D as "an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously". In that light, there is no more reason to get bored of exploring the dungeons than to get bored of pushing pawns, drawing cards, or looking for a chance to lay down tiles on score-multiplying squares.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I don't see that as "the Gygaxian style" of D&D; if anything, recent versions of the game have downplayed the other elements. I don't know how long it lasted, but there was a period of at least a couple of years when players in the Blackmoor campaign chose to focus on the dungeons.

There's also the old view of D&D as "an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously". In that light, there is no more reason to get bored of exploring the dungeons than to get bored of pushing pawns, drawing cards, or looking for a chance to lay down tiles on score-multiplying squares.

I always considered the main point of difference between old school/gygaxian and modern D&D/RPGs was the question of whether the game treats PCs as disposable or valuable. Its interesting to note that the game rules of 2E and 3E tended to fall on the side of disposable PCs, while most people tended to play contrary to it.

 

[Ariosto]

And can a whole system be called legacy mechanics? There really isn't much difference between 2e and 1e.

The lack of difference is what I meant by "legacy mechanics"!

 

[Raven Crowking]

There really isn't much difference between 2e and 1e.

There is if you go beyond the PHB, MC/MM and DMG. New classes, new races, different forms of magic, kit-bashing, very different bard, very different psionics, specialty priests, lots of changes in subsystems, called shots, etc., etc., etc. 1e modules can be used as-is in 2e because 1e is almost the same as baseline 2e.

But 2e added a lot to that baseline.....A number of those additions being influential in the design of 3e.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I always considered the main point of difference between old school/gygaxian and modern D&D/RPGs was the question of whether the game treats PCs as disposable or valuable. Its interesting to note that the game rules of 2E and 3E tended to fall on the side of disposable PCs, while most people tended to play contrary to it.

The DMing advice in 2e is explicitly to avoid making the PCs disposable.

 

[Mallus]

The lack of difference is what I meant by "legacy mechanics"!

Yes. I realize that.

What I meant was that I've heard the term 'legacy mechanics' used to describe a few subsystems retained in what otherwise is a new system. When the whole new system is a 'legacy mechanic', I think it's time to find a better term.

 

[Mallus]

There is if you go beyond the PHB, MC/MM and DMG. New classes, new races, different forms of magic, kit-bashing, very different bard, very different psionics, specialty priests, lots of changes in subsystems, called shots, etc., etc., etc.

Isn't that effectively true for 1e as well? People added a lot to it, too.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Isn't that effectively true for 1e as well? People added a lot to it, too.

Ummm......No.

If I add a million things to 4e -- including varient magic, Vancian casting, etc -- that doesn't change the 4e system itself. It just changes my game. Indeed, the game might not even be recognizable as 4e if I change it enough.

If WotC adds a million things to 4e, 4e changes.


RC

 

[Mallus]

Ummm......No.

Didn't the Dragon continually add optional material to 1e for years? Like a decade? And that's just a single source. I'm not sure I see your point.

And why does source matter? Baseline 1e is very close to baseline 2e. It was common practice to heavily mod each system. Where those mods came from is irrelevant.

Modded 2e might not resemble baseline 1e anymore. Then again, modded 1e might not resemble baseline 1e anymore.

 

[Remathilis]

Modded 2e might not resemble baseline 1e anymore. Then again, modded 1e might not resemble baseline 1e anymore.

**Cough, Cough, UNEARTHED ARCANA Cough, Cough**