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History Buffs: What if?
- Thread starter Corey
- Start date
MaxKaladin
First Post
Oh, I wouldn't be so quick to count out the Germanic tribes. They'd been taking territory from the Celts for centuries by the time Caesar conquered Gaul. They were also an adaptable and resourceful people. I suspect that anyone who tried to take advantage of them for too long would have regretted it.
David Argall
First Post
maybe almost nothing at all
These what if stories are pretty much based on an overly mechanical view of history. It is more realistic to use the swimming pool view. Take out of bucket of water, put in a bucket. It doesn't really make all that much difference. Maybe you get some splashing, but...
To consider some of the events suggested...
" * The Babylonians eliminated Judah. (597 BC Nebuchadnezzar executes Jehoiachin and a large number of Judah’s population following a revolt. Later, Zedekiah, placed on the throne by Nebuchadnezzar, also revolts. 586 BC Soloman’s Temple razed and large numbers of Jews executed. "
The area is now occupied by the Samartians, and this tiny despised sect they call jews. Bablyon is destroyed by the Persians who treat the locals well, but are displaced by the Greeks, whose attempts to impose Greek culture cause a successful revolt, tho the samartian state is eventually taken over by other states. Some time shortly after 1 AD [CE is a silly term, a foolish attempt to hide what can't be hidden.], this hick lay preacher comes to the holy capitol and makes a pest of himself, causing his execution. His followers refuse to accept his death and insist he is still alive, and start preaching all over the place....
"* The Romans fought to a stalemate with Carthage during the Second Punic War. "
The 3rd Punic war follows and is a complete Roman success, ending with the destruction of Carthage [which is later refounded..]
"Currently, the Carthaginian Empire [600 AD]"
The number of states that have lasted 800+ years is zero. Each suffered massive revolution, conquest, and/or other replacement during such a period. We can safely say the Carthaginian Empire simply would not have lasted that long.
One possibility, the invasions that took out the Roman Empire also overran north Africa, so we can again suggest a revision to the actual European history.
"* Rome never conquered Greece. (197 BC-Philip V defeats Titus Quinctius Flaminius at the Battle of Cynoscephalae in Thessaly.)"
Once again, there is no reason to assume this was anything close to a final try. A generation later, another war, and Greece becomes Roman anyway.
History doesn't have any actual "what if" moments.
These what if stories are pretty much based on an overly mechanical view of history. It is more realistic to use the swimming pool view. Take out of bucket of water, put in a bucket. It doesn't really make all that much difference. Maybe you get some splashing, but...
To consider some of the events suggested...
" * The Babylonians eliminated Judah. (597 BC Nebuchadnezzar executes Jehoiachin and a large number of Judah’s population following a revolt. Later, Zedekiah, placed on the throne by Nebuchadnezzar, also revolts. 586 BC Soloman’s Temple razed and large numbers of Jews executed. "
The area is now occupied by the Samartians, and this tiny despised sect they call jews. Bablyon is destroyed by the Persians who treat the locals well, but are displaced by the Greeks, whose attempts to impose Greek culture cause a successful revolt, tho the samartian state is eventually taken over by other states. Some time shortly after 1 AD [CE is a silly term, a foolish attempt to hide what can't be hidden.], this hick lay preacher comes to the holy capitol and makes a pest of himself, causing his execution. His followers refuse to accept his death and insist he is still alive, and start preaching all over the place....
"* The Romans fought to a stalemate with Carthage during the Second Punic War. "
The 3rd Punic war follows and is a complete Roman success, ending with the destruction of Carthage [which is later refounded..]
"Currently, the Carthaginian Empire [600 AD]"
The number of states that have lasted 800+ years is zero. Each suffered massive revolution, conquest, and/or other replacement during such a period. We can safely say the Carthaginian Empire simply would not have lasted that long.
One possibility, the invasions that took out the Roman Empire also overran north Africa, so we can again suggest a revision to the actual European history.
"* Rome never conquered Greece. (197 BC-Philip V defeats Titus Quinctius Flaminius at the Battle of Cynoscephalae in Thessaly.)"
Once again, there is no reason to assume this was anything close to a final try. A generation later, another war, and Greece becomes Roman anyway.
History doesn't have any actual "what if" moments.
Re: maybe almost nothing at all
founding of city of Rome and Roman Republic: 753 BC
fall of Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinople): 1453 AD
founding of first Chinese Empire under Shih Huang-ti: ca. 2600 BC
last Chinese Emperor deposed: 1911 AD
these are just two examples i could think of off the top of my head. there are more.
if anything, i think your view of an unchangeable history is even more mechanistic that those positing "what-ifs?".
oh, that's not true.David Argall said:
founding of city of Rome and Roman Republic: 753 BC
fall of Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinople): 1453 AD
founding of first Chinese Empire under Shih Huang-ti: ca. 2600 BC
last Chinese Emperor deposed: 1911 AD
these are just two examples i could think of off the top of my head. there are more.
if anything, i think your view of an unchangeable history is even more mechanistic that those positing "what-ifs?".
Desdichado
Hero
Actually, I've made most of those same points, I just called it Gallia instead of Gual!NoOneofConsequence said:
Desdichado
Hero
Wha... ?!? What territory where they taking from the Celts before Caesar conquered Gaul? Seems to me that the Germans were rather quietly sitting around in Scandinavia and behind the Rhine before Caesar conquered Gaul. And, since Caesar didn't really do anything resembling modern ethnographic studies, we don't know for sure where the dividing line was between Germanic and Celtic peoples, it was "traditionally" put at the Rhine is all.MaxKaladin said:
By the time Germans were taking territory from anyone Celtic, it was centuries later and there were no more really "native" Celtic people left except in Ireland (which wasn't taken by any Germanic until the Vikings founded Dublin, and really "taken" only finally by the Normans much, much later) because the Celts had been pretty thoroughly Romanized. This was especially true in Gaul.
KnidVermicious
First Post
This is in regards to a post much earlier in the thread. Corey, you said you were thinking about a Scandinavian Elf/Alfar area, but thought it might be too Tolkien-esqure. I would highly reccommend taking a look at the Palaestra campaign world. It's more pseudo-real world fantasy than alternate history fantasy, but I think you might find some good ideas. I would also reccomend the excellent "Byzantium on the Shannon" Story Hour that is based in the Paleastra world.
David Argall
First Post
histories
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Originally posted by David Argall
The number of states that have lasted 800+ years is zero.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"oh, that's not true.
founding of city of Rome and Roman Republic: 753 BC
fall of Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinople): 1453 AD"
Archaeology suggests Rome was founded around 600 BC. It was conquored several times thereafter up to 298 BC, the 1st firm date in roman history. The various upheavals in its history can be deemed changes in states, and the change with Agustus routinely is. The end of the Roman Empire is normally dated with the fall of Rome, in 476 AD.
Now Byzantium has a better case to have lasted a thousand years, tho a casual look at the fluxes of its borders calls into question whether it was the same state during all that period. From the basic point of the argument, whether a stable border between 2 warring states could be maintained for centuries, it is not an encouraging example.
"founding of first Chinese Empire under Shih Huang-ti: ca. 2600 BC
last Chinese Emperor deposed: 1911 AD"
This is a combination of several states that were in the same area, rather like saying Saddam was the latest king of Babylon. The state of Hsia lasted about 400 years and was destroyed by the Shang, who more or less fell apart a couple of centuries later. The Chin reunified the culture briefly, but there was then widespread civil war until the Han ruled for 4 centures, which was followed by 3 centures of disunion and brief states....
China as a culture is several thousand years old. As a state, it never made 500.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by David Argall
The number of states that have lasted 800+ years is zero.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"oh, that's not true.
founding of city of Rome and Roman Republic: 753 BC
fall of Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinople): 1453 AD"
Archaeology suggests Rome was founded around 600 BC. It was conquored several times thereafter up to 298 BC, the 1st firm date in roman history. The various upheavals in its history can be deemed changes in states, and the change with Agustus routinely is. The end of the Roman Empire is normally dated with the fall of Rome, in 476 AD.
Now Byzantium has a better case to have lasted a thousand years, tho a casual look at the fluxes of its borders calls into question whether it was the same state during all that period. From the basic point of the argument, whether a stable border between 2 warring states could be maintained for centuries, it is not an encouraging example.
"founding of first Chinese Empire under Shih Huang-ti: ca. 2600 BC
last Chinese Emperor deposed: 1911 AD"
This is a combination of several states that were in the same area, rather like saying Saddam was the latest king of Babylon. The state of Hsia lasted about 400 years and was destroyed by the Shang, who more or less fell apart a couple of centuries later. The Chin reunified the culture briefly, but there was then widespread civil war until the Han ruled for 4 centures, which was followed by 3 centures of disunion and brief states....
China as a culture is several thousand years old. As a state, it never made 500.
Desdichado
Hero
Re: maybe almost nothing at all
Luckily, most historians disagree with you, so we don't have to accept such a boring pronouncement.David Argall said:
