History Buffs: What if?

[MaxKaladin]

Wha... ?!? What territory where they taking from the Celts before Caesar conquered Gaul? Seems to me that the Germans were rather quietly sitting around in Scandinavia and behind the Rhine before Caesar conquered Gaul. And, since Caesar didn't really do anything resembling modern ethnographic studies, we don't know for sure where the dividing line was between Germanic and Celtic peoples, it was "traditionally" put at the Rhine is all.

Well, for an immediate example I'd say the territory of the Helvetii. That was a Celtic tribe up in what is now modern Switzerland that was being pushed out of its territory by the expanding Germanic Seuvi tribe. Their attemt to flee into Gaul is what gave Caesar his excuse to invade.

On a longer term, I'd say a fair bit of northern Germany. All my books are in storage right now, but I've got a historical atlas that has a series of maps showing the gradual expansion of the Germanic tribes from what is now modern Denmark into modern Germany over a period of centuries. They kept gradually pushing back the Celts and other peoples and expanding their own territory. They had only recently reached the Rhein when the Romans started paying attention to the area.

Here it is. This is the current version of the atlas I was thinking of: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...6738500/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-0925085-2691813

 

[Fenris]

So if Carthage is still around, do they still have a monopoly on the tin trade with Britain? They would if they still control the straits.

With all the talk of the Germanic tribes, what about the huns? With a strong Bablyon, the Huns would have driven the Germanic tribes further west, displacing the Celts, again, but earlier.

 

[Desdichado]

Why would there be a Babylon again? I don't see how the lack of a Roman empire keeps the Darian Persian empire from forming, or it's various successor states, the Seleucid Persian/Hellenic Empire, Parthian Empire and then the Sassanid Persian Empire.

 

[Fenris]

Why would there be a Babylon again? I don't see how the lack of a Roman empire keeps the Darian Persian empire from forming, or it's various successor states, the Seleucid Persian/Hellenic Empire, Parthian Empire and then the Sassanid Persian Empire.

Sorry, misunderstood the initial post. I thought he has asserted Babylon as a current empire, not just in the elimination of Judea.

Same point though, what lies east of Greece (or Rome as Corey may decide) and how does it affect the migration of the Huns and other peoples?

 

[tetsujin28]

Actually I think Rome would have turned to the Mithraic Mysteries a cquite popular cult especially among the soldiers and one that IRL almost edged out christianity as the official religion of Rome.


And no Jesus, what about Islam?, Does the loss of the other monothesistic religions affect the panthesitic Arabs?

That would be monotheistic and pantheistic. And many people were already shifting towards a pagan monotheism before the advent of Christianity. Athanasiades' Pagan Monotheism in Late Antiquity is a good source.

Mithras would never have appealed to a large segment of the population. The cults of Isis and Serapis, Cybele and Attis, etc. were always more popular. If you're interested in Mithras, be aware that there's a lot of conflicting information available. Franz Cumont is considered the founder of Mithraic studies, but most of his theories have been either disproved or strongly contested in the intervening years. I would recommend Manfred Clauss' The Roman cult of Mithras, which was written in 1990, and translated into English in 2000.

No Jews plus no Jesus equals no Islam. That area would probably be Manichean or some other variant of Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism is a fascinating subject in its own right.

If you're interested in Slavic and Baltic paganism, make sure you avoid any source that takes Maria Gimbutas seriously -- she's a quack.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Actually, I've made most of those same points, I just called it Gallia instead of Gual!

Sorry 'bout that - that's what I get for only doing a quick scan.

 

[Corey]

Corey, what are you up to?

This smacks of "impact on my character".

Felix,

You'd love to know what I'm up to.

I'd suggest you worry about more immediate issues- like keeping your PC alive on Sunday. Very bad things coming.

Corey

 

[Corey]

So have you decided which base timeline to go with?

Working on it. I have two small children (and a game to run this weekend) limiting the amount of time I can devote to this project.

For sure I'm casting aside the Rome does not take Greece bit.

I like the idea of a fledling Celtic state in France that, while seeking to establish itself as a power in its own right, is the board in a Rome-Carthage cold war. It could also have recently been conquered or had a puppet placed in authority and rebels are both establishing themselves in Britian and fighting back-turning the conqueror's eye on Britian.

My current campaign is set in a fantasy version of post-Alexander Afghanistan. The British Isles are the starting point for the next campaign, so my prime focus in all of this is what is happening in Britian. The Mediterranean is background- not too far back though- other than who has established what in Britian.

I'm also toying with dropping the eqivalent date back to 400 AD or even 0.

I'm cutting and pasting alot of this thread to reflect on in my quiet moments. It takes a while for the Wiggles (shudder), finger painting and singing A,B,C's to wear off at night so my brain can work.

By the way- there are some amazingly well-read and creative people on this board. Thank you all so much for all the comments so far.

 

[Corey]

Same point though, what lies east of Greece (or Rome as Corey may decide) and how does it affect the migration of the Huns and other peoples?

It will be Rome. As for how it effects the Huns or other migrating nomads, let them come. They bring instability, which in turn breeds more interesting gaming.

Corey

 

[TroyXavier]

A few empires were around for 800 years or more
Egypt
Rome
Britain