Hit dice with no level adjustment?

[ThirdWizard]

1. 2HD - this is very useful, particularly at higher levels, because you become more resistant to spells like blasphemy, sleep, etc. IMO, merely on this it is +1LA. Like I said, some special abilities (poison DCs for example) are based on racial HD. There might not be any, sure, but then there might be.

I'm curious, do you understand that a 2HD creature is automatically considered an ECL 2 character if they have no level adjustment? Hit Dice are irrelevent to LA because LA is the amount over and above their HD modifying ECL. That 2HD isn't a boon any more than 2HD of fighter is a boon. In many cases monsterous HD are weaker than class-based HD, making it a liability more than an aid.

Giving a 2 HD character a +1 LA for having humanoid HD is like giving a fighter a +1 LA becuase he's a 2nd level fighter. It makes no sense.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks. first off, no, there is no 1-for-1 race; I was suggesting an alternate meachanism that also is not used.

Your list is interesting, Infinity, but it shows me that we're not quite on the same page. Compare 2 hit dice to two class levels (pick a class, any class; the NPC baseline warrior is a fair measure).

Points 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, and 11 are exactly as it would be with two class levels in a generic class. There is nothing exceptional here, and the PC loses benefits from being in a non-generic class. But I think this is important: the 11 hit points (e.g., and the feat, and the save) are NOT a benefit associated with feats--they are EXACTLY the hitpoints, feats, saves the character would have from class levels. Instead, hit dice mean that the character does not have access to class skills.

Point 7, the imbalanced stats, I agree is worth +1, and is really the only thing that to my mind warrant a +1 LA.

This leaves 3 and 4 (darkvision and +1 nat armour). Darkvision is common enough in PC races that it does not in itself warrant any LA (it is given to compensate for the lost feat and skill point of the human). +1 Nat armour is a benefit found in other level-adjusted races and in kobolds. But compare the (supposedly equal) Lizard folk who get +5 nat armour. To me there is no comparison here.

As for skillpoints, again, I think I'm just missing sommething. Here's an analysis I posted last September

"Thinking about it, we can truly measure what the system does to monsters with hit dice:

Cases 1 and 2 represent optimized gnolls, with and without class levels.

case 1. 14 Int Gnoll-- 2d8 +1 LA = ECL 3

maximum number of skill points: 15
feats: 1

case 2. 14 Int gnoll-- 2d8 +1 LA +1 ranger (preferred class) = ECL 4

maximum number of skill points: 23
feats: 2 + track = 3

Case 3 represents the fewest number of skill points I can get with a one hit die monster, which is NINE skill points more than the best equivalent gnoll. Case 4 represents an average ranger (race chosen because it receives no skill bonuses; both races have -2 Int penalty).

case 3. 14 int half-orc 3rd level sorc = ECL 3 (the worst I can imagine)

maximum number of skill points: 24.
feats: 1

case 4. 14 Int half-orc 4th level ranger = ECL 4

maximum number of skill points: 56
feats: 2 + track + endurance + weap spec. = 5

The worst case one-die monster beats the best gnoll by 3 points/level at ECL 3.
The best gnoll in his preferred class will always be down 33 skill points and will always be behind in feats on any smaller race."

Plus, with only two skills, there is no good way to spend any extra skill points if the char has an INT of at least 12 (which it needs to speak Common!). So, let's drop the intelligence:

(an adapted follow-up)

(we'll now assume Int 10 characters)

case 1: best case (= average) Gnoll-- 2d8 = ECL 3

maximum number of skill points (i.e. no cc-skills): 10
feats: 1

Analysis: this is marginally worse than the worst-case ECL 3 player race:
10 int half-orc 3rd level sorc = ECL 3
maximum number of skill points: 12.
feats: 1

So... Balance!(?) Except...

case 2: gnoll with 2d8 +1 ranger (preferred class) = ECL 4

maximum number of skill points: 16
feats: 2 + track = 3

Analysis: this is 38 skill points behind a 3rd level ranger:
10 Int half-orc 4th level ranger = ECL 4
maximum number of skill points: 54
feats: 1 + track + combat style + endurance. = 4

That gap will never close.

(obviously we can make the half-orc anything else, and he ends up with feats or spellcasting, or whatever) My point is, just on skill points, there is a HUGE loss.

CONCLUSION

What I get from all this is that most of your list is not relevant. Great stat bonuses on the one hand, yes, vs. always terrible skills, two suboptimal levels, +1 Nat armour, and darkvision.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, here. I do appreciate your help.

Maybe I'll take up IcyCool's suggestion, but I've gone on long enough for now.

Thanks, all, for reading.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm curious, do you understand that a 2HD creature is automatically considered an ECL 2 character if they have no level adjustment? Hit Dice are irrelevent to LA because LA is the amount over and above their HD modifying ECL. That 2HD isn't a boon any more than 2HD of fighter is a boon. In many cases monsterous HD are weaker than class-based HD, making it a liability more than an aid.

Giving a 2 HD character a +1 LA for having humanoid HD is like giving a fighter a +1 LA becuase he's a 2nd level fighter. It makes no sense.

I think there's just confusion on understanding my response. I am under the impression that Kobold Stew thinks that a gnoll (for example) should have LA +0. In other words, getting the 2HD for free. I was merely listing all the benefits of two free hit dice in order to show, I hope, that they should not be free and that they are indeed worth +1 LA. I by no means implied that two racial HD = 2 class levels. That is actually my argument as well (just based on CR in the fact that no monster is 1 for 1 with improved racial HD and CR).

 

[Finley DaDum]

I would not compare 2HD to two class levels. Even in your example, it's +1LA, not +2. I can't think of anything off-hand that is 1-for-1 HD with LA. Is there?

In any case, to understand it better, perhaps you should list all the things that the 2HD gives you. I suggest pricing them all as feats or special abilities and see how well that works. Consider the gnoll. He gets:

1. 2HD - this is very useful, particularly at higher levels, because you become more resistant to spells like blasphemy, sleep, etc. IMO, merely on this it is +1LA. Like I said, some special abilities (poison DCs for example) are based on racial HD. There might not be any, sure, but then there might be.
2. +11hp (default) - this is essentially equivalent to 3 and a half feats (toughness) or at least 2 feats (if you houserule toughness to be +5 hp). That's huge.
3. +1 natural armor - This is equivalent to one feat, and one that normal PCs cannot even get. Moreover, it allows you the ability to increase it and gives you access to potentially more feats.
4. Darkvision, etc. - Let's assume some of these abilities are the same as existing races, so this adds no additional benefit.
5. Fort save +3 - This is over and above a feat and a huge advantage.
6. Power attack - This is a feat. The drawback of course is that you're technically required to get it (though as a DM I would allow a player to choose something else at 1HD).
7. STR +4 Con +2 - this is huge and the downside of Int -2 Cha -2 does not even remotely compensate for it for almost any fighter build.
8. BAB +1 - this is better than a feat and essentially weapon focus (any), but then some.
9. Racial skills listen and spot - this may or may not be a benefit, dunno
10. Racial skill points - okay, I think this is a benefit
11. Automatic language - gnoll - okay, this is actually a disadvantage because you would need an Int of 12 or to spend some skill points (which is offset by the 'free' skills above) to gain Common

Anyway, just going through gnoll, I'd argue that it more than warrants a +1LA. Just based purely on the benefits of the additional HD, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be at least +1LA. HD and all the benefits they bring are very significant.

You seem to be saying by all this that a gnoll gets the two racial HD for free, this is not the case he has these instead of 2 levels in a class, on way of thinking of this is gnolls are required to start play with 2 levels in the class GNOLL: MONSTROUS HUMANIOD. A starting gnoll character is ECL 4 with 2 levels in gnoll, and one other level. You are weighing all the benifits of the racial HD as if they were included with the LA+1, when they are the poison pill that a gnoll has to swallow to go with the abilities they get as an LA+1. You have to compare the Gnoll HD to 2 levels of a class to get a good picture, lets use their favored class of ranger.

1. 2HD - a wash here the ranger gets 2HD and the same kind d8s.
2. Well 11 HP is actually what an average gnoll gets, a PC gnoll would receive 8 for his 1st HD and 4.5 for his 2nd this is equal of course to what a ranger would receive.
3. +1 Natural Armor (this is part of the LA+1 abilities)
4. Darkvision (LA+1 ability)
5. Fort save +3, ranger gets that and Reflex save +3
6. Power Attack, actually they are not required to take this the feats in the MM are just what the average example of that species would have, every PC starts with a feat at 1st level so this is a wash.
7. Ability adjustments (again these are part of their LA+1)
8. BAB +1, Ranger gets BA+2
9. Gnoll racial skills-Spot and Listen 2 total, ranger list encompasses 20 skills not counting craft skills.
10. Gnoll gets 2 skill pts per level and get burned by having to take their 1st class level in a class with only 2 skill pts, over 2 levels the gnoll with average Int. gets 10 skill pts, a ranger with average Int. gets 30 skill pts.
11. Automatic Language: Gnoll (This is part of their LA+1)

In everything that wasnt part of their LA the gnolls racial HD come up well short of what they would recieve for being a ranger.

Their LA abilities ammount to:
Str+4, Con+2, Int-2, Chr-2
Darkvision
+1 Natural armor bonus
Automatic Language:Gnoll

Bugbears also have an LA+1 and though they have to swallow 1 more racial HD lets see what they get for the same LA.

Str+4, Dex+2, Con+2, Chr-2
Darkvision
+3 Natural armor bonus
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin

Bugbears get more in every respect and their class skill list though small is much better than the gnolls.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Your list is interesting, Infinity, but it shows me that we're not quite on the same page. Compare 2 hit dice to two class levels (pick a class, any class; the NPC baseline warrior is a fair measure).

See, that's where we're differing. I never suggested comparing 2HD to 2 class levels. No one is. It's a +1 LA, not +2. You should be comparing 2HD to 1 class level. Since you are suggesting that gnoll be LA +0, then a gnoll ranger 1 should be equivalent to a human ranger 1 in terms of ECL (1). I say that is false and my list is my attempt at proving it. 3HD is much better than 1 and the gnoll should not be able to get the +2HD for free. Maybe it can be argued that +1 is too much (or too little), but it is certainly worth more than +0 like you suggest.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Okay, I seem to be misunderstanding something, so let me think about it some more before responding again. You all appear to be in agreement and I can't be the only one right. If someone sees where my thought process went wrong, please feel free to correct me.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

[*]STR +4 Con +2 - this is huge and the downside of Int -2 Cha -2 does not even remotely compensate for it for almost any fighter build.

This is why Gnolls get the LA+1 (ECL+3). Nothing else on the list is enough of a difference to warrant inclusion, except maybe the skill points and the feat.

If I'm going to play a gnoll, it won't be to make it a skill-monkey, it will be to build a mulcher, so, in the end, it just comes down to the feat, and this is at least balanced by the loss of hit points (2d8 [racial]+1d8 [ranger] vs. 4d8 [ranger]).

I would leave gnolls as LA +1, but I won't play one. At +3 ECL, they're underpowered, but I think that at only +2 ECL (LA +0), they'd be overpowered.

The best solution might be to play them with an XP penalty to begin with, so while everybody else needs 1000xp to make 2nd level, the gnoll PC needs 3000xp.

 

[Kobold Stew]

See, that's where we're differing. I never suggested comparing 2HD to 2 class levels. No one is. It's a +1 LA, not +2. You should be comparing 2HD to 1 class level. Since you are suggesting that gnoll be LA +0, then a gnoll ranger 1 should be equivalent to a human ranger 1 in terms of ECL (1). I say that is false and my list is my attempt at proving it. 3HD is much better than 1 and the gnoll should not be able to get the +2HD for free. Maybe it can be argued that +1 is too much (or too little), but it is certainly worth more than +0 like you suggest.

I think here is your mistake. What I see you saying here is that the +1 level adjustment gives you the two hit dice. That's not the case.

A Gnoll Ranger-1 is treated as a fourth-level character--he doesn't get to Ranger-2 until he gets the experience threshold for a fifth level character.

2 hit dice + 1 level adj. + 1 class level == 4 ECL

For a human ranger 4 ECL = 4 class levels.

Does that help?

Both the LA and the HD are part of the ECL.

Stew.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Okay, I seem to be misunderstanding something, so let me think about it some more before responding again. You all appear to be in agreement and I can't be the only one right. If someone sees where my thought process went wrong, please feel free to correct me.

It looks like you're equating LA and ECL.

The formula is (racial)HD+LA+class levels=ECL

By the RAW, a 1st level gnoll ranger is a 4th level PC. (2+1+1=4)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Okay, I seem to be misunderstanding something, so let me think about it some more before responding again. You all appear to be in agreement and I can't be the only one right. If someone sees where my thought process went wrong, please feel free to correct me.

The only valid way to compare things is via Effective Character Level.

ECL is equal to the sum of racial hit dice, class hit dice, and level adjustment.

Any "normal" PC race has values of 0 for racial hit dice and level adjustment. Thus, an elven ranger 3 is ECL = 0 + 3 + 0 = 3.

A gnoll, currently, has a value of 2 for racial hit dice and a value of 1 for level adjustment. Thus, a gnoll ranger 3 has an ECL = 2 + 3 + 1 = 6.

If we were to eliminate the gnoll's LA, then the same gnoll ranger has an ECL = 2 + 3 + 0 = 5.

Accordingly, you should compare an elven ranger 5 vs. a gnoll ranger 3 to get a "fair" comparison.

In other words, we have two characters:

Elf: Ranger 5

--and--

Gnoll: Gnoll 2 / Ranger 3

The gnoll will always be "multiclassed" with his creature type, because he has racial hit dice. Racial hit dice are, generally speaking, less powerful than class hit dice.