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How did Trek Become Such a Phenomenon?

Janx

Hero
Hm. I'm not sure. What if at the end of the game you say: "Well, I won, because I took your King," while the alien says, "No, I won, because I clearly made more triangles than you. I don't even know why you messed with those little guys in the front rank, do you know how hard it is to make a triangle with them?

Good point, and I should have been more clear. Chess is a metaphor for real life problem resolution.

if the aliens are focused on making triangles out of their ship formations, and I'm moving a chunk of my fleet to flank them around Uranus, they are gonna get reamed because their "alien mindset" is incompatible with surviving a hostile force that is doing smart things to kill them.

So, while somebody may literally be playing a different game within the rules and actual context of Chess, when it comes to doing real things, you either take actions to advance your situation and protect yourself or you lose ground and die.

Any alien race who can't puzzle out what to do when "they keep destroying our triangle formations and killing us" is doomed to extinction. It's one thing to be initially puzzled that the other race does things differently than you (why are their gun ports open, that's a hostile act!). It's whole 'nother thing to be incompentent in the art of war because of your alien mindset.

At some point, those alien dudes gotta have a brain that figures out "I don't think they're playing but the same rules of who can make a bigger triangle for conflict resolution. We need to combat them differently by killing them with our poisonous venom spray instead"
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Hm. I'm not sure. What if at the end of the game you say: "Well, I won, because I took your King," while the alien says, "No, I won, because I clearly made more triangles than you. I don't even know why you messed with those little guys in the front rank, do you know how hard it is to make a triangle with them?

That's not a question of mindset, though, but a question of understanding the stated rules of the game. If they fail to comprehend the logic that completely, they wouldn't be moving the pieces in the prescribed manners in the first place.

Though, the triangles example is a little glib. We could run into difficult to understand mindsets that are not so logically simplistic.
 

Janx

Hero
That's not a question of mindset, though, but a question of understanding the stated rules of the game. If they fail to comprehend the logic that completely, they wouldn't be moving the pieces in the prescribed manners in the first place.

Though, the triangles example is a little glib. We could run into difficult to understand mindsets that are not so logically simplistic.

That's certainly true that the triangle obsession is a silly example. Chalk it up to my limited brain being unable to invent an alien mindset and trying to be funny.

here in the real world, the closest we have is different human cultures. The natives of the island that became New York City traded it for some beads. They had some seriously different views on land and ownership. That mindset cost the indigenous people of both American continents in that they did not exploit the land, expand scientific and technological advances. As a result, though having land that had vast resources, they were ill prepared for first contact with Europeans.

Somehow, Europeans had better germs than the natives, and the natives got sick. At best, they gave Europe some STDs in return. Trade-wise, they got the short end of the stick more often than not (trading land for beads? WTF!). Militarily, they had good tactics (the art of war is pretty much the same, regardless of weapons), but being constrained to cave man technology where europeans had better equipment was a good setback.

I would posit that by the time a Federation of Planets would form, the only remaining species are folks that kind of think the same way. Species that value nature, don't tend to mine and build pollution generating rockets to space. if they had, and by some fluke had no hostile experiences on their own planet, first contact with the Klingons would beat that out of them.

I suspect, in ST tradition (getting us slightly back on traffic), where the Klingons and Romulans were ST's bullies, the humans were just as prone to violence, but happened to think bullying is wrong, so Earth formed the Federation, recruited all the wussy races (like our triangle loving friends) and flew around beating up bullies and returning their lunch money.

So for wussy mindset aliens to survive the harshness of space, they need Team Starfleet - Space Police to keep the peace.

I'd wonder if there's some psychological profile that indicates someone with bullying tendencies could redirect that to law enforcement in order to avoid "being the bad guy." Dexter being the most extreme example (psychopath who redirects his urges onto criminals). Anecdotally, I know police who say that's exactly why many cops join the force. They think like bad guys, but don't want to get in trouble.

So, StarFleet in ST could merely be a redirection of human violence-tendency to a good cause (beating up bad guys).
 


MarkB

Legend
That's certainly true that the triangle obsession is a silly example. Chalk it up to my limited brain being unable to invent an alien mindset and trying to be funny.

here in the real world, the closest we have is different human cultures. The natives of the island that became New York City traded it for some beads. They had some seriously different views on land and ownership. That mindset cost the indigenous people of both American continents in that they did not exploit the land, expand scientific and technological advances. As a result, though having land that had vast resources, they were ill prepared for first contact with Europeans.

But then again, to them their ways seemed perfectly logical and sensible, and until the Europeans arrived they had no reason to think beyond those constraints or even consider them to be constraints.

Isn't it just as likely that we are operating under similarly universally-held, never-questioned assumptions, and will be similarly utterly unprepared to deal with the wider realities we'd be exposed to by a truly alien spacefaring species?
 

Janx

Hero
But then again, to them their ways seemed perfectly logical and sensible, and until the Europeans arrived they had no reason to think beyond those constraints or even consider them to be constraints.

Isn't it just as likely that we are operating under similarly universally-held, never-questioned assumptions, and will be similarly utterly unprepared to deal with the wider realities we'd be exposed to by a truly alien spacefaring species?

That's certainly true. our allegedly more conquerful culture may suck totally at space conquest. I suspect our culture of continual advancement is better suited to it than the ones we took out. But that doesn't mean they're the best.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But then again, to them their ways seemed perfectly logical and sensible, and until the Europeans arrived they had no reason to think beyond those constraints or even consider them to be constraints.

Um... those "constraints" are somewhat mythical. I think they're a remnant of the "manifest destiny" nonsense. More recent research gives us a different perspective.

Let us consider, first off, that "sale of Manhattan for beads" bit. That entire story comes from one document - a letter written by a Dutch trader. We should note that the letter does not mention who they bought the land *from* - like, we don't know if the Dutch identified that the person they were buying from had any authority to make deals! In all probability, while the Dutch thought they'd bought the land, the Natives felt they'd made payment to be recognized as having a right to stick around. Note that the deal itself didn't actually impact things from that point on - it isn't like the Dutch used their "ownership" to evict the natives.

Note that the concept of "I own this land, and therefore get to exploit it" only helps you if your ownership rights are recognized and respected by others - you need others to recognize and honor your ownership. Given how frequently Europeans broke agreements, contracts, and treaties when they became inconvenient, I don't see how having the European mindset would have helped. The natives would have gotten pushed aside even if the Dutch hadn't "bought" the land.

And, the assertion that Native Americans "did not exploit the land, expand scientific and technological advances," is likewise inaccurate. I'm sorry, but it shows an ignorance of how Europe got its technological advances - by having the luck to be able to build on the advances of Mesopotamia, the Persians, Greece, and China. It shows an ignorance of how great an impact horses had on European and Asian advancement. It shows a lack of understanding of the massive agricultural workings of the Central American empires (Not exploiting the land? Ha!), and that many of our current agricultural products are based on strains originally bred by the Native Americans - corn, potato, tomato, bell pepper, chili pepper, vanilla, tobacco, beans, pumpkin, cassava root, avocado, peanut, pecan , cashew, pineapple, blueberry. It misses how North American settlers remarked on finding entire forests of fruit and nut trees set up as orchards (which, of course, they cut down and cleared). It misses how quickly Native Americans adopted and mastered horses. It also misses how much math you have to know to create something as accurate as the Mayan calendar. And those are only the big colorful examples that pop to mind.

Basically, the whole "Native Americans didn't have the mindset for advancement" is a myth (and a kind of racist one, I'm afraid to say), based on ignorance of what was going on in the Americas, and of how lucky (dare I say privileged?) the Europeans were. Europeans were not special in their mindset, but were special in their location and situation.

Isn't it just as likely that we are operating under similarly universally-held, never-questioned assumptions, and will be similarly utterly unprepared to deal with the wider realities we'd be exposed to by a truly alien spacefaring species?

Given how persistent things like Janx's assessment of indigenous people seems to be, even despite evidence and research to the contrary, I'd say that's an ironic "yes!"
 
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Janx

Hero
Given how persistent things like Janx's assessment of indigenous people seems to be, even despite evidence and research to the contrary, I'd say that's an ironic "yes!"

I actually already admitted that, but thanks.

You clearly have lots of great info on all the natives accomplishments. I certainly wasn't clear that just because the Europeans were great at betraying and taking over 2 entire continents, that doesn't mean the natives were inferior. They merely weren't well suited to resisting the Europeans. Given the time they had left alone before Columbus showed up, they had plenty of time to invent everything the folks in Africa, Europe/Asia had. Perhaps, living in the land of plenty didn't ferment a culture of necessity to drive the same tech innovations.

What we do see out of this, is that 2 different mindsets (the natives & the europeans), they both figure out horses just fine (natives once they get them). People can think and value differently, and still come to comprehensible solutions (let's ride these things!).
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
OK, I need help.
(Yeah, I'm sure some of you have been thinking that for a while now, but seriously...)
One of my coworkers told me tonight that she's never seen Star Trek. Any of it.
I was stunned.
So, how to introduce someone? Start from "The Cage" and work forward? I was tempted to go with "Space Seed" followed by Trek2, but not sure that's the answer.
Suggestions?
 

ggroy

First Post
OK, I need help.
(Yeah, I'm sure some of you have been thinking that for a while now, but seriously...)
One of my coworkers told me tonight that she's never seen Star Trek. Any of it.
I was stunned.
So, how to introduce someone? Start from "The Cage" and work forward? I was tempted to go with "Space Seed" followed by Trek2, but not sure that's the answer.
Suggestions?

The pilot episodes "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" appear to be somewhat different than the rest of episodes. (ie. Different cast, etc ...).

Most of the other episodes seem to be self-contained, and can be watched in just about any order. (Except the two part episode "The Menagerie").
 

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