In all of those cases, of course they get a saving throw: INT save when I cast the Phantasmal Force spell on them. After that, it's an INT (Investigation) check to end the spell. In the meantime, if they failed the initial saving throw, they are treating those effects as real.
D&D 5E How does the Phantasmal Force spell work correctly?
ThePolarBear
First Post
Yes, but you know that if interacting with an illusion does trigger rationalization, how do you investigate it? That's the conondrum. If you fail at investigating you are clearly also rationalizing everything you "learned" in your investigation. If you succeed, you realize it's an illusion... how? How are you not rationalizing? Are you not interacting with the illusion in some way?
I know it's a mechanic and fluff is secondary, but it relies on the disconnection between player and character to work, something that's not 100% present as assumed by the books in my game and won't work as written. It still ends up working more or less the same way: Either the player ignores the illusion and then there's no roll or the player interacts with the illusion somehow and it gets the description of what happens and, if an action was spent, the request for a roll.
I think yours is an interpretation. Your has some part of the text to support your view (the target interacting with the phantasm.)
Mine is not really an interpretation of the text and more a ruling on the spell. I have not much in the way of text to point out other than the rationalization bit and that actually simply looking at something happening is enough to call "interacting", since you are recieving "updates". But again, it's totally fine to see outside sources as a way to have a foothold to investigate.
Absolutely not a broken spell anyway. And not really a question about if the person next to you won't be able to raise doubts about the actual existance of the illusion (people get scammed every day IRL, and that's pretty much convincing someone of something not real of being real, i see the opposite being very possible), it's the check itself nonsensical. You interact with the illusion and rationalize every illogical outcome. So, how do you realize that's an illusion? Mechanically, via check.
Fluff... you realize that's an illusion because something tells you "that's not real", going exactly opposite to what the spell says.
For me, it has to go between the "interaction" and the "rationalization" of the check at least. But i'm 100% sure you got it the first time i said it, so i'm just repeating myself and not bringing anything new on the table
It's totally fine to go for a different approach (a more RAW like, possibly, like yours seems to be)
Just a small thing: Gelatinous cubes do move. Well, they CAN move, so probably would.
Why would those break tho? The target can't change the illusion: It can't make a bear become a cat anymore than he can break the chains, both physically and mentally. Even the caster can't change the illusions (specific abilities being exceptions).
Also, the chains breaking is something that would make an illogical outcome logical, not a rationalization of an illogical outcome. That's not how the spell works.
There's no saving throw to dibelieve since any illogical outcome from interacting with the box gets rationalized right away. The only way to get rid of the spell once the first saving throw has been failed is to spend an action investigation the illusion and rolling a INT (investigation) check against spell DC. And the servant can't really do anything... the box is not there in the first place!
CapnZapp
Legend
Yes, but the devil lies in the details.
How and where do you allow the Investigation check?
More specifically: do you allow situations where the monster simply doesn't investigate, or do you automatically assign the investigate action to each and every monster so afflicted?
Let's look at a real-life example.
Place a new toy on the floor in front of a dog. The dog will most likely attack it thinking it's a new animal. After a few snaps or barks, it'll move up gingerly and sniff it and take an experimental nip at it. Where do *you* think the INT (Investigation) took place?
CapnZapp
Legend
I'd prefer a game reality example. Also, let's keep things abstract, so we can get an universally applicable answer.
Situation: You successfully cast Phantasmal Force on Monster X who you are currently fighting. Now it's Monster X's turn.
First question: Can Monster X attack you unimpeded?
Next question: Assuming a "no" on the previous question, can Monster X take the Investigate action to get rid of whatever is preventing it from participating in the combat unhindered?
Thank you
The answer to the first question is "Depends on the illusion created".
If I have the PF show up as a box over the target's head, then it will attack with Disadvantage if it failed the initial saving throw *if it normally relies on sight*. If it relies on Tremorsense or Blindsight, then the illusion of the box will do nothing to impede it. If it chooses to, it can investigate the box and might determine that it's not really there.
If I have the PF show up as a polar bear, then it can attack me unimpeded since there is nothing about the polar bear that will stop it from doing so. The illusion of the polar bear might give me some kind of concealment, depending on where the polar bear appears to be to the target in relation to where I am. The illusion of the polar bear will deal damage to the target. The target can choose to continue to attack me or it can choose to attack the polar bear. If it attacks the polar bear, the attack will miss and the target will rationalize that as the bear dodging out of the way or something; that part is up to the DM. If the target really looks at the bear and does the INT (Investigation) check, it may determine the bear is an illusion.
If I have the PF show up as skeletal hands crawling out of the ground, then the target can attack me unimpeded, because the skeletal hands do nothing to stop it from doing so. The illusion of the skeletal hands might cause the target to not move, since it believes the hands might grab for it. The illusion of the skeletal hands might cause the target to move somewhere else. According to Jeremy Crawford, the illusion can move with the target, so in the case of the target moving, the illusion of the skeletal hands might crawl along the ground as the target moves. The skeletal hands will deal damage to the target. Until the target takes a good look at the skeletal hands and does an INT (Investigation) check and succeeds, the hands will continue to harass the target until the spell ends.
In all of these cases, everyone else in the battle is unaware of exactly what the target is seeing. Even the caster cannot see the illusion once the spell is cast. So, the target's allies see the target moving erratically or staring the wrong direction or jumping in fright ... all depending on what the illusion is.
Phazonfish
B-Rank Agent
So it's sounding to me like the target only makes an Investigation check if it would be checking out the phenomenon for a reason other than determining whether or not it is real (because the target has no doubt it is real, because any cause for doubt would be rationalized away). For instance, if the target is a knowledgeable wizard who is somewhat aware that your casting ability is such that 2nd level spells are the best that could be expected from you, and you use PF to create an illusion of some effect that doesn't match any known spells and/or seems stronger than 2nd-ish level spells could produce, then the target would probably spend their action investigating. Not because they are thinking "Is this an illusion? Because it seems odd." but rather "What is this and how do I beat it?" Is my understanding correct?
Pvt. Winslow
Explorer
One thing I always consider when evaluating this spell as a DM, is this: Don't forget that NPCs can use this spell on the Players.
Generally, I rule that this spell can physically restrain a character, but the character's efforts to break free of that restraint is the Investigation check. Basically, this spell ends up being similar to Hold Person, targeting Int, and allows an Investigation check as an Action each round.
I do this, because if we take most of the examples used in this thread to cleverly prevent the target from making said Investigation checks, and use in on a player, I'm pretty sure you'd have a pissed off Player. No one gets to tell them what they can or can't do. You can't tell them "the cage is red hot, you wouldn't want to try and shoulder charge through it". They can come up with any number of reasons why yes they do want to shoulder charge it.
I just extend that same courtesy to my NPCs and monsters. This spell is fantastic for limiting a creature's ability to affect a combat or scene, and eating up their Action each round on Investigation checks. But is it all that much better than Hold Person? Which also effectively removes a creature from a combat until it makes a save? I don't think so. The more you try to be clever and make illusions the target wouldn't think to make Investigation checks on, that's when break this spell.
It isn't just Players that use Phantasmal Force. NPCs can use it too. Don't make this a save or lose the combat spell, and don't make it a "I randomly choose to push my way out of the box, and oh I stumbled free? Guess it's an auto-success" sort of spell. Keep it mechanical. Let those Investigation checks reflect their attempts, PC or NPC.
I feel you end up with a lot less arguments at the table that way.
Generally, I rule that this spell can physically restrain a character, but the character's efforts to break free of that restraint is the Investigation check. Basically, this spell ends up being similar to Hold Person, targeting Int, and allows an Investigation check as an Action each round.
I do this, because if we take most of the examples used in this thread to cleverly prevent the target from making said Investigation checks, and use in on a player, I'm pretty sure you'd have a pissed off Player. No one gets to tell them what they can or can't do. You can't tell them "the cage is red hot, you wouldn't want to try and shoulder charge through it". They can come up with any number of reasons why yes they do want to shoulder charge it.
I just extend that same courtesy to my NPCs and monsters. This spell is fantastic for limiting a creature's ability to affect a combat or scene, and eating up their Action each round on Investigation checks. But is it all that much better than Hold Person? Which also effectively removes a creature from a combat until it makes a save? I don't think so. The more you try to be clever and make illusions the target wouldn't think to make Investigation checks on, that's when break this spell.
It isn't just Players that use Phantasmal Force. NPCs can use it too. Don't make this a save or lose the combat spell, and don't make it a "I randomly choose to push my way out of the box, and oh I stumbled free? Guess it's an auto-success" sort of spell. Keep it mechanical. Let those Investigation checks reflect their attempts, PC or NPC.
I feel you end up with a lot less arguments at the table that way.
Phazonfish
B-Rank Agent
Your system seems to contradict the spell description in a few places for the sake of avoiding metagaming when the spell is used against the players. I think the simpler solution is to not inform the players that they are under the effect of an illusion, as they probably won't waste their actions with "I randomly choose to push my way out of the box" if they think the box is real and sturdy. As for how to get the spell off without alerting the players (as it requires and Int save, which is kinda suspicious), it may be difficult, but there are ways. Maybe try and have your illusion mimic an effect that could reasonably requiring an Int save, or maybe the caster is using the new Lore Wizard subclass and the illusionary box on the player required a Dex save to avoid.
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