D&D 5E How hard is it to accidentally have a TPK?

[Sacrosanct]

On a side note, a TPK isn't necessarily this horrible thing that should never happen. It does happen, and is part of the game. Pretty much all of the TSR editions said right up front that PC death was a thing that will happen at some point, and it provided an opportunity to play something else, and it's certainly not the end of the world. IMO, if you play the game with no real risk of PC death, then all you have is a shared story so why roll the dice to begin with? Obviously YMMV

 

[Over the Hill Gamer]

1. I would hope all TPKs are accidental as opposed to intentional. Because an intentional TPK speaks to a serious problem with the DM or group or both.
2. As for accidental TPKs, I think they largely occur because of miscalculation. Miscalculation by the players includes a) a poor decision to fight a monster (just because Smaug is on the mountain doesn't mean you need to march up there); b). bad tactics (jumping into the lake to fight the water weirds is not always the best strategy); c) failure to run. Miscalculation by the DM includes: a) misjudging the strength of an encounter; b) a failure to predict the effect of terrain on an encounter.

Another cause of TPKs is just bad luck. If you keep missing and the monster keeps saving there's not much you can do, except run.

I think it is fair and necessary to design encounters where the very real probability of a TPK exists --but it should not be the intention of the encounter. Risk is essential to the viability of the game. High risk, high reward.

On a side note, I wonder how many people would agree with the following proposition: A TPK is often more likely than is a single character death in 5e. As a DM, I have found this to be true. In my experiences with other systems, especially 1e and its retro clones, a single character death is more likely than a TPK. The opposite seems true in 5e.

 

[robus]

On a side note, a TPK isn't necessarily this horrible thing that should never happen. It does happen, and is part of the game. Pretty much all of the TSR editions said right up front that PC death was a thing that will happen at some point, and it provided an opportunity to play something else, and it's certainly not the end of the world. IMO, if you play the game with no real risk of PC death, then all you have is a shared story so why roll the dice to begin with? Obviously YMMV

My concern is from the DMs side. If the PCs decide to embrace death in order to accomplish their goal then that's one thing. A DM inflicting death for no larger story purpose than simply because the PCs got out of their depth doesn't seem particularly interesting.

My players are quite invested in their characters so killing them would be a big deal at this point. They could tolerate a heroic death, but being splatted like flies? That would go down badly.

 

[Sacrosanct]

1. I would hope all TPKs are accidental as opposed to intentional. Because an intentional TPK speaks to a serious problem with the DM or group or both.
2. As for accidental TPKs, I think they largely occur because of miscalculation. Miscalculation by the players includes a) a poor decision to fight a monster (just because Smaug is on the mountain doesn't mean you need to march up there); b). bad tactics (jumping into the lake to fight the water weirds is not always the best strategy); c) failure to run. Miscalculation by the DM includes: a) misjudging the strength of an encounter; b) a failure to predict the effect of terrain on an encounter.

Another cause of TPKs is just bad luck. If you keep missing and the monster keeps saving there's not much you can do, except run.

I think it is fair and necessary to design encounters where the very real probability of a TPK exists --but it should not be the intention of the encounter. Risk is essential to the viability of the game. High risk, high reward.

I agree with all of this

On a side note, I wonder how many people would agree with the following proposition: A TPK is often more likely than is a single character death in 5e. As a DM, I have found this to be true. In my experiences with other systems, especially 1e and its retro clones, a single character death is more likely than a TPK. The opposite seems true in 5e.

It's the same for me. Singular deaths far outweigh TPKs in all editions. I've never seen a TPK in 5e yet, but I have seen character deaths (My own PCs being two of them )

My concern is from the DMs side. If the PCs decide to embrace death in order to accomplish their goal then that's one thing. A DM inflicting death for no larger story purpose than simply because the PCs got out of their depth doesn't seem particularly interesting.

The thing is, the DM doesn't inflict death for any story reason. It's a risk, and if it happens it happens. The DM is a referee, and doesn't push or prevent TPKs; he or she only runs the NPCs up to the best of their ability. If the PCs made poor decisions, and PC death occurs, then that's the price of making poor decisions and hopefully they learn from that next time

My players are quite invested in their characters so killing them would be a big deal at this point. They could tolerate a heroic death, but being splatted like flies? That would go down badly.

One of the things about D&D (and this is actually mentioned in the 1e books), is that by the time players become invested in their PCs, they have options to mitigate PC death. Usually raise dead spells or whatnot.

It's probably one of the reasons why old school players take a philosophy of not not planning out their PCs way in advance, but letting in game experiences shape the direction of PC advancement, while 3e players seem to take more of an approach of planning out their PCs way in advance before fighting their first orc.

 

[Dausuul]

The key word being accidentally.

I frequently read here about DMs not wanting to risk something for fear of TPKing a party. But I'm starting to wonder about how reasonable (in 5e especially) that fear is?

As the DM we continuously control the threat level. For example if the party is out for the count the victors can truss them up and keep them for a tasty snack later (offering the opportunity for escape, revenge or whatever).

If the monster is too deadly for them then they're probably more of a nuisance than a threat and the monster could choose to make an example of one of the party, leaving the others to deal with bring that character back to health.

So is it easy to accidentally have a TPK? Or does it require a DM to ignore the warning signs?

It's not really about whether we can prevent a TPK. Of course we can, always. It's about whether we can do it without an obvious deus ex machina.

Intelligent monsters might take the PCs prisoner, sure. But a horde of zombies? A hydra? Not so much. In these cases it's very hard to save the party without it being really dang obvious what you're doing. As a player, I'd rather have my PC die honestly than be saved by blatant DM fiat.

My solution is to rely on the players. Facing imminent demise, they turn into a font of loony escape plans. All I have to do is be generous about letting them work.

Sent from my 0PM92 using EN World mobile app

 

[iserith]

My concern is from the DMs side. If the PCs decide to embrace death in order to accomplish their goal then that's one thing. A DM inflicting death for no larger story purpose than simply because the PCs got out of their depth doesn't seem particularly interesting.

My players are quite invested in their characters so killing them would be a big deal at this point. They could tolerate a heroic death, but being splatted like flies? That would go down badly.

DMs don't inflict death. They present challenges. Those challenges have difficulty and stakes. The DM can mess with the difficulty and the stakes and should be telegraphing both in my view. If the DM has done that much, the rest is on the players. They can choose to engage, avoid, engage then escape, etc. They have a lot of options to avoid TPK. If they don't avail themselves of that, it can hardly be the DM inflicting death. It's the players inviting it.

If they are so invested in their characters, then the responsible thing for them to do in my opinion is to make a plan for death. Do they have access to revivify? Raise dead? If not, why not (barring level)? Do they have a strategy for extracting themselves from a no-win situation? Again, if not, why not? Their character's lives and deaths are their responsibility, not yours. If these are things the players don't think about or talk about among each other, perhaps you can facilitate that conversation.

But otherwise, don't sweat it, I say.

 

[Horwath]

Most of the time TPK comes from players "metagaming" the idea: DM wouldn't make the encounter that we have no chance to win.

Well, yes he would!

You just have to appraise the situation and see if you have the chance in that. Just to keep you in check so you don't think that you control the town or city at 7th level.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Most of the time TPK comes from players "metagaming" the idea: DM wouldn't make the encounter that we have no chance to win.
.

Excellent point. I'm not sure exactly when it started (probably 3e, but definitely stressed in 4e), but the strive for balanced encounters led to this mindset. Players assumed they would have X amount of encounters and spend Y amount of resources on each one. So I can see why if a TPK happened, the players would think it's somehow unfair.

We all have personal tastes, but mine is more old school, where encounters are built based on what makes sense in the game world. Sometimes they are easy. Sometimes they are balanced. Sometimes they are way too hard. The point is that you never knew for sure, so you as a player stayed on your toes and did research and planning and took a cautious approach. Do I burn my fireball here, not knowing if I have seven more encounters before I get a chance to rest?

I like that unpredictability in my games. It makes them feel more real and alive, rather than just a process to slog through (like grinding in a video game).

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think that it would be incredibly difficult to actually achieve a true TPK accidentally, meaning that all party members die in the encounter. With the Death Saving Throw mechanic, it's actually pretty tough to kill a PC, let alone all of them. Especially since, once the last one goes down, you can simply end the scene and then decide as the DM what happens. Maybe any currently surviving PCs are captured or left for dead or whatever. Maybe some friendly NPCs arrive to help them. So there seems to be a lot of DM decision involved that would make an accidental TPK very unlikely.

The math for Death Saves is on the PCs' side, so you have to expect that most PCs will survive that process. Yes, they can get failed saves as a result of damage, but then that kind of goes against the "accidental' aspect that we're talking about.

Honestly, I'd say it's almost impossible for a true TPK to happen accidentally. There are just too many points in the process where the DM's desires enter the equation.

 

[robus]

Honestly, I'd say it's almost impossible for a true TPK to happen accidentally. There are just too many points in the process where the DM's desires enter the equation.

That's my impression too. That DMs have a lot of leeway to "manage" the situation if that is their desire.