D&D 5E How hard is it to accidentally have a TPK?

[iserith]

Like I said: It's not whether you can avert the TPK, it's whether you can do it without destroying your own credibility. Friendly NPCs coming out of nowhere to save the party, or unintelligent monsters mysteriously declining to kill the PCs, is a really bloody obvious sign that the DM is bailing you out of a jam. From the player side, that sort of thing kills my interest in a campaign. I'd rather just eat the TPK and make new characters.

I'm of the same mind as a player. The DM didn't telegraph the difficulty well enough or did and we still made decisions that got us into a pickle. Either way, I would prefer to take my medicine than have the DM bail us out, however subtly.

When it comes to TPKs turning into capture or something like that, I'm fine with it, but only if the DM telegraphed that possibility in advance of it occurring.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

If the PCs use teamwork, absolutely. But some groups just aren’t that good at strategy. The closest thing to a TPK I’ve ever had while running occurred in 5e. They tracked the infamous villain down and he sent his white dragon pet after them. Some PCs went after the white dragon (what I expected, since, you know, dragon), but others decided to take the villain on (uh-oh). The way the encounter was set up, they ended up being separated from the cleric, which meant no healing for them. It also meant that each half of the party was taking on a monster designed to be taken on by all of them at once. Only one PC actually died (due to a crit fail on his death save), but everyone was down at the end of it.

For my part, character death is a bummer, but it’s been a part of the game since the beginning. I don’t set out to kill characters, and I cheer for their victories. But sometimes the dice can be swingy, and bad luck abounds. Not to mention, sometimes PCs make very bad decisions.

[edit] All that being said, that encounter was also a mistake on my part as well, failing to anticipate how the PCs would react to it.

I think that it would be incredibly difficult to actually achieve a true TPK accidentally, meaning that all party members die in the encounter. With the Death Saving Throw mechanic, it's actually pretty tough to kill a PC, let alone all of them.

 

[hawkeyefan]

If the PCs use teamwork, absolutely. But some groups just aren’t that good at strategy. The closest thing to a TPK I’ve ever had while running occurred in 5e. They tracked the infamous villain down and he sent his white dragon pet after them. Some PCs went after the white dragon (what I expected, since, you know, dragon), but others decided to take the villain on (uh-oh). The way the encounter was set up, they ended up being separated from the cleric, which meant no healing for them. It also meant that each half of the party was taking on a monster designed to be taken on by all of them at once. Only one PC actually died (due to a crit fail on his death save), but everyone was down at the end of it.

For my part, character death is a bummer, but it’s been a part of the game since the beginning. I don’t set out to kill characters, and I cheer for their victories. But sometimes the dice can be swingy, and bad luck abounds. Not to mention, sometimes PCs make very bad decisions.

Oh absolutely. Individual PC death is very likely. My campaign has had a few PCs die, and many more instances where things were very close, and the dice were the determining factor.

I just think that an instance where ALL PCs die is not very likely, and on the off chance it is somehow not avoided, it can still be mitigated in a reasonable way without resorting to something that damages the DMs credibility or anything like that.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Agreed - the only actual TPK I experienced, was as a player back in 2e. It was an encounter that was unbeatable without us finding the hidden magic doohickey that we didn't find. Heck, there wasn't even a way to retreat.

By design, if a specific thing didn't happen, the inevitable outcome was a TPK.

Oh absolutely. Individual PC death is very likely. My campaign has had a few PCs die, and many more instances where things were very close, and the dice were the determining factor.

I just think that an instance where ALL PCs die is not very likely, and on the off chance it is somehow not avoided, it can still be mitigated in a reasonable way without resorting to something that damages the DMs credibility or anything like that.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Blue]

5e combat, because it's designed to be over in a few rounds, can be rather swingy with a run of luck for one side. That said, it's ridiculously easy to stand up a downed PC and going down is almost no risk unless the rest of the party goes as well.

Now, context is everything - you put the heroes in ten tough battles with maybe a single short rest and resources are low, and then there's a swingy combat you could have a TPK - but the series is not an accident, just what happens at the end.

Note: a too-tough encounter that has ample means of retreat that TPKs becuase the party won't retreat isn't an accident. An encounter where players do stupid things even though they know better isn't an accident. (It could be great roleplaying - I'll be a martyr to kill the demon, or base stupidity. It's just not an accident.)

On the flip side, if you misjudge designing a combat, say make a non-retreatable combat and put in foes who are particularly effective against the party (or just a whole lot of them), you can have a TPK. And if you didn't mean to do it then technically it's an accident. But the accident wasn't on-the-table, it was the design before the session.

So exceptions: changing some of the grittiness factors with variants in the DMG can up chances of accidental TPK. If you intentionally run a high risk/high lethality game (which can be a blast, no judgement here) then the line to slip over for a TPK is a lot closer. Question if that's accidental or just the nature of the beast at that point.

But you really need to work at it to have an accidental TPK in 5e.

 

[robus]

...spam vomit...

Reported.

 

[Valetudo]

The key word being accidentally.

I frequently read here about DMs not wanting to risk something for fear of TPKing a party. But I'm starting to wonder about how reasonable (in 5e especially) that fear is?

As the DM we continuously control the threat level. For example if the party is out for the count the victors can truss them up and keep them for a tasty snack later (offering the opportunity for escape, revenge or whatever).

If the monster is too deadly for them then they're probably more of a nuisance than a threat and the monster could choose to make an example of one of the party, leaving the others to deal with bring that character back to health.

So is it easy to accidentally have a TPK? Or does it require a DM to ignore the warning signs?

Fairly easy at the first couple levels, especially if they are new to the game or edition. But it gets harder after that although I find that the reason most people claim that 5th edition provides no challenge at later levels is because the dm isnt using monsters, spells, and terrain to their full potential. Im hearing too many stories of high level one rounders. Then when I hear full details, most of the time its because of how the dm runs the enemies.

 

[SwivSnapshot]

Very easy. Since our group started playing 5e, we've had 5 TPK's- The opening encounter of HotDQ, the final encounter of RoT, and 3 in COS, although the players are only aware of one of them. The reasons cover the spectrum- good dice rolls, bad dice rolls, an inexperienced DM, impulsive players.

 

[Sunseeker]

Overall, hard. Parties are pretty tough, monsters have low damage output. Even the way I run encounters (usually 2x deadly) I usually don't drop more than one player, and if I do almost anyone can get them back by the end of the fight.