D&D 5E How hard is it to accidentally have a TPK?

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[aco175]

I wasn't sure the other night when the 9th level group went against a beholder. They were 6th level when they first found out about it and made a point to stay away. I let the challenge come to them last week and they went in to save another adventuring group. A few fights and a rest before they came to the beholder. There was a tower that had several holes in the floor that would drop the PCs or the beholder to the next level and either take damage or allow the beholder to pop up again in another location.

The fight could have went bad once the first PC went down. There was a point where the cleric was slid into a hole and fell down causing him to take 2 rounds to get back to the room and in that time the fighter could have been disintegrated. since I had the beholder focusing on him since the fighter was doing the most damage to him. If the fighter went down, it would become tougher for the thief to get backstab, the mage may have been the next focus before the cleric came back. I could have ended badly, but I did not know the outcome at the time.

 

[robus]

As [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] stated, be generous with escape plans. But there's no point in playing a rigged game, even if it's rigged in your favor.

Absolutely. I'm not trying to rig it either way really. I just wanted a feeling for how easy the accidental TPK to happen is in real life.

And it sounds like it's not that easy and therefore I can relax to some degree when throwing obstacles in the way of my players. Yes if they want to make it the hill they're going to die on that's fine. But a "gotcha" death, even accidentally, would be bad form IMHO.

 

[Dausuul]

With the Death Saving Throw mechanic, it's actually pretty tough to kill a PC, let alone all of them. Especially since, once the last one goes down, you can simply end the scene and then decide as the DM what happens. Maybe any currently surviving PCs are captured or left for dead or whatever. Maybe some friendly NPCs arrive to help them. So there seems to be a lot of DM decision involved that would make an accidental TPK very unlikely.

Like I said: It's not whether you can avert the TPK, it's whether you can do it without destroying your own credibility. Friendly NPCs coming out of nowhere to save the party, or unintelligent monsters mysteriously declining to kill the PCs, is a really bloody obvious sign that the DM is bailing you out of a jam. From the player side, that sort of thing kills my interest in a campaign. I'd rather just eat the TPK and make new characters.

One solution is to supply the party ahead of time with a "get out of jail semi-free" card: A limited-use object that can yank the PCs out of any situation and teleport them to... somewhere. Somewhere bad, but not immediately threatening, such that the PCs can bandage their wounds and recover before tackling the new threat. Because you provided the object before the TPK situation, because the number of uses is limited, and because the decision to activate it rests with the players, it doesn't seem like a deus ex machina, while serving the same purpose.

 

[lowkey13]

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[hawkeyefan]

Like I said: It's not whether you can avert the TPK, it's whether you can do it without destroying your own credibility. Friendly NPCs coming out of nowhere to save the party, or unintelligent monsters mysteriously declining to kill the PCs, is a really bloody obvious sign that the DM is bailing you out of a jam. From the player side, that sort of thing kills my interest in a campaign. I'd rather just eat the TPK and make new characters.

One solution is to supply the party ahead of time with a "get out of jail semi-free" card: A limited-use object that can yank the PCs out of any situation and teleport them to... somewhere. Somewhere bad, but not immediately threatening, such that the PCs can bandage their wounds and recover before tackling the new threat. Because you provided the object before the TPK situation, because the number of uses is limited, and because the decision to activate it rests with the players, it doesn't seem like a deus ex machina, while serving the same purpose.

I get your point about credibility, but that's a bit different than the question that was posed. Credibility may be something you want to maintain, but it doesn't really have any impact on teh possibility of a TPK unless you want it to. Some groups aren't going to worry so much about the DM taking it easy a bit here and there. Some will. But that will vary, and is your personal choice and not something based on the mechanics of the game.

Having said that, I do strive for credibility and creating a believable world, so I understand your view, and that would be my approach as well. But when I gave my examples, I did not mean for them to be out of the blue kind of situations. However it is handled, I would expect it to make sense for the given campaign. So, to use the NPCs coming to the rescue, perhaps it was a group of elven hunters that the PCs had helped out earlier, or some other equally plausible explanation. If you're concerned about the possibility of a TPK that much, then it would make sense to always have something like this in your back pocket just in case.

A TPK is not impossible, but it is very difficult. Yes, we can come up with the perfect string of situations and circumstances where it can happen....a low level party where the risk of death from massive damage is actually real, mindless enemies like zombies who would feed on fallen foes, all the rolls going against the party and for the monsters, failed death saves before any healing can be applied, etc.....but again, there's still a lot of DM decision making involved, no? How many zombies could a first level party realistically face without this being a worry? Not accidental, DM choice. The choice to use an area spell with a fallen PC in the area of effect is again a DM choice. The DM can do a lot that doesn't affect credibility if needed.

An accidental TPK isn't a major concern of mine, and I would think that most would share that view. For newer DMs, I would think that it could be more possible....but again, that's because it's largely within the DM's ability to control.

 

[Over the Hill Gamer]

Well, in that respect (especially once you get past the early levels) 5e is very, very forgiving.

Compared to 1e, which had numerous "save or die," level drains, and terrible things ... yeah.

I agree. It is by design obviously. An arbitrary or pointless death can be quite disheartening. But I wonder if the pendulum hasn't swung a little too far in favor of the players? Maybe monsters should organize a union and demand safer working conditions!

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Over the Hill Gamer]

What do we want?

LESS PCs WITH POINTY THINGS THAT HURT US!

And when do we want it?

....um... BY THE START OF THE NEXT CAMPAIGN!!!!

This message brought to you by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and Kobolds, Local 402.

Awesome! We monsters also want:

*A cadillac healthcare plan like the PCs get - more monster clerics!
*Feats -- why can't we have them, too!
*Return to 1e xp leveling requirements. 300 xp is a joke!

 

[jasper]

Hmm. Assuming 1. Dm let the dice fall as they may. 2. Dm does not play the monsters nice. ( Gee the monster just got tired of chewing the fighter and wanders away.) 3. It is an average to tough fighter.
I would give you a 7.14% chance if the following happens (see post 60 on http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...les-Jasper-questions-and-rants-Spoilers/page6) . 1. PC(s) get really stupid. 2. Dice are against the party. 3. Monster has no reason for the party to live. 5. Party mix is not good.
I would not give out a get out jail free card. Or ever play a monster as a G rated Disney encounter.